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Animal (both human and non-human) Rights

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Nathanael Nathanael VIC Posts: 211
1 7 Jun 2009
I'm not sure how to explain this, but I'll try anyways.
Humans are animals. Yes we've evolved. No we aren't "better", just different.
Veganism and animal rights is about ending the enslavement and mistreatment of animals and this journey begun for me with human rights.
Humans being animals, can be included the broad field of animal rights (although it can be confusing to do this constantly).
Hence i'd say that, shoes made in a sweatshop, no matter how leather free they may be, wouldn't be vegan.
What do you people of the internet think?

Please ask my to clarify things if need be, I'm tired and i'm not sure if this is clear as it could be.

_Matt _Matt VIC Posts: 1567
2 8 Jun 2009
i get what you mean. and yeh... shoes made in sweat shops aren't vegan to the 'strictest' of terms. but when i say the word vegan... Im generally referring to the diet side of things.. not the whole, massively spanning ideology that is veganism.

btw... when i talk of non-human animal rights i say... "animal rights."
when i talk of human animal rights i say... "human rights."

- It gets confusing to explain human rights as animal rights. Also, I sound like an extremist militant when I start talking with terms to explain "animals" (like tigers, dogs, mice etc) as "non-humans."

wo... this IS confusing.

Kirrilly Kirrilly VIC Posts: 2092
3 8 Jun 2009
Yeah I use vegan in the "diet" sense as well but I do try to avoid clothing brand that I know use sweatshops & child labour. These things are hard to police though.
And basically I just say animal rights and quickly explain to people that it includes humans as well.

Nathanael Nathanael VIC Posts: 211
4 8 Jun 2009
Yeah, by no means would I say I follow a 100% no flaws or mistakes vegan" lifestyle", I geuss my point, if I even had one, was that maybe for instance, the sweatshop free wool jumper might be closer to being vegan then the cotton sweatshop one? Bad example, think of something that's nearly impossible to get both sweatshop free and vegan and apply it to that.
Basically, maybe we shouldn't separate our fates quite so much between non-human and human?

Also I definetely agree that saying not distinguising between animal and human rights is confusing, I was more trying to make the point that fully understanding that humans are animals was pretty crucial to animal lib/welfare, especially at the start.
We're all down in this hell together! ha!

None of this is a thought out point of view, or ideology... obviously.

_Matt _Matt VIC Posts: 1567
5 8 Jun 2009
Nathanael said:
maybe we shouldn't separate our fates quite so much between non-human and human?
a point to ponder..

Rainbow Fox Rainbow Fox QLD Posts: 91
6 9 Jun 2009
I avoid sweatshop devices and defninatley slavery stuff (especially where kids are involved)...

However as depressing as it is, people in some of those countries really need sweatshops to live because there is no other work and if they don't earn the measly 6 cents a day their family will just die.
I still think sweat shops should be getting their act together and stop being so greedy to make more profit and give their hard workers more money. But for a lot of families it is better than nothing and it is (for now) putting (minimal) amounts of food on the table.

Child slavery however (mainly in the chocolate industry actually...) is extremely wrong and disgusting, becuase these kids are taken out of their homes and not paid at all...Cadbury's I believe is signing a contract soon so that like 80% of their cocoa will be sourced from non-slavery beans. ( I think).

I hate sweatshops but sometimes I think they have the brand of 'necessary evil'... so the workers can survive... but I will still fight like crazy to get them better rights...

Nathanael Nathanael VIC Posts: 211
7 9 Jun 2009
I don't want to labour this point about the pro's and con's of sweatshops to much, but here it goes anyways.
Sweatshops and factories in the developing world in general, often run via displacing people from farm lands and moving them into urban slums. That is, people come to the city on the premise of getting steady work, and a more western styled lifestyle. They then often become stuck in poverty and so relient on their job that they are to afraid to form a union or ask for better conditions individually.  Anyways, it's the displacement of people from rural land and the destruction of this rural land to often, build the factories etc. that means that the people "need" the sweatshop job in many situations.
Also, not to sound TOO nihilistic, but I'm not entirely sure life is really worth living constantly on the verge of starvation. (The suicide rates are supposedly among the highest in the slums in China, or so i've heard)

Anyways, yes, people in the developing world need work and yes buying Australian made is second best to buying from a unionized, safe and well managed offshore factory somewhere where people don't have the choice of picking up the dole. (There aren't many options that can gaurantee that much).

Conor Conor United States Posts: 4
8 10 Jun 2009
i got it man and i think your right it's cool to see other people think the same thing as me

Nathanael Nathanael VIC Posts: 211
9 15 Jun 2009
thanks conor.

Jacqui T Jacqui T NSW Posts: 796
10 15 Jun 2009
Mm' Nathaneal you brought up a really good point, and it certainly shows the flaws in human ideas itself. I mean, being cruelty free by buying leather free shoes aren't really cruelty free if they come from sweat shops. It just shows the cycle of faults and wrongs humans have, its impossible to have everything perfect..but its sad that no matter how much we try there will always be another issue rising up.
The effect is ofcourse many issues are hidden, thats why we don't know how "cruelty free" our living is.

So .. I wonder if there really is a way to have a "cruelty free" life.

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