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When your close friends have completely different views to you?

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Bridgey Didge Bridgey Didge NSW Posts: 26
1 10 Jul 2010
Sorry for the loooooong rant- but this is just something I really need to get off my chest!

How do you cope when someone close to you has ridiculously different views to everything you believe in? One of my best friends who I love and respect very much pretty much has the complete opposite views as me in regards to animal rights. She is doing animal science at university and wants to be a beef farmer when she has finished. We are great friends and can talk about mostly everything, but when the topic of animals/ farms/ meat come up, it causes a lot of tension and a lot of debates which gets us both pretty upset.
My main ideals are that every living creature should have the right to a wonderful and happy life. We should be kind and treat others as we ourselves wish to be treated! I don’t believe in exploiting anything for human greed and profit.
However my friend looks at it as if animals are here to serve us. If it wasn’t for us, they wouldn’t be here and would become extinct. She looks at everything very scientifically and for our gain- rather than looking at these animals as living breathing creatures with just as much right to be on this earth as we do!
I generally like to keep the peace. I never force my opinions on anyone, but am not afraid to defend my views. However- I have never been the best at debating, and never seem to be able to get my point across as strong as I would like.
Tonight we were talking about cows- and my friends said that dairy cows have great lives, they are always happy to come see the farmers and they love being milked and often fight to get into the doors of the milk shed.
I tried to say that that’s because that’s what they have be forced to do their entire life- they don’t know anything else!  I questioned the ethics of taking about their children and killing the male calves, making them produce abnormal levels of milk etc- but it was all flogged off and counteracted with them having great lives and that they enjoyed it. It was like talking to a brick wall. Whatever I said was just thrown back in my face. We then got onto the topic of milk not actually being very good for you anyway. I stated research about other countries that hardly drink milk having less cases of osteoporosis as Western countries. She just smirked, looking at me like I was an idiot- or brain washed and said-
“Yes, but there are a lot of studies out there- not just those ones.”
Which got me quite upset. I have already been told by her on a number of occasions that everything I read is bias- and there are always two sides to a story. I’m not a complete idiot! I know this! I am able to shift through the information and decide for myself what to believe.
She then went on to state that if we did not breed cows for milk/ beef than there wouldn’t be any cows in the world. I said I didn’t believe that, and that cows were probably doing fine before we got here- and what about wild cows in other countries?
Well according to her that it is very rare to find cows in the wild- and if they didn’t benefit us in any way- then we wouldn’t let them live and they would die out.
I just gave up at that point.  She is just so opinionated and believes her views are always right….
We often stop the discussion when things start to get a bit to heated- but it’s the way she looks at me and shoots down everything I say as if I have no idea what I’m talking about.  She thinks what I read is bias extremist crap and that I’ve been brain washed and that- “Oh, but you are watching stuff from America! It doesn’t happen here” as if that somehow makes it better??... Just because it isn’t happening here (which I explained that it is- but she doesn’t believe me- thinking that because she is doing animal science and has had firsthand experience/ knows people who work on farms, that she knows more than I do.) doesn’t make it any less horrific and terrifying that it IS actually happening out there! That us as humans are capable of inflicting such horrible and terrible things on another living creatures!
Don’t get me wrong, my friend is an absolutely lovely and wonderful person, and I get that she has differing views- but it’s just so hard when it’s so different to something you feel so strongly about.
She once told me that she bought caged eggs because she is gluten intolerant and has to pay extra for everything else so why should she pay extra for eggs!?.... I mean…  Geez! What do you say to that!?...
I don’t know.. I guess I’m just feeling a little alone and sad at the moment. I don’t know ANY vegetarians or Vegans (except my mum who gave up red meat after listening to one of my rants) and the majority of my friends just do not understand me or where I’m coming from! They joke and call me ‘mother Teresa’, a hippy or even that I’m just conforming to the new craze of being Vegan.  I mostly just take it. You have to be a little thick skinned, but still stick to you morals and know in your heart what you are doing is right regardless of what others think. It’s just a little lonely when there is no one you can really talk to about these important issues that you feel so strongly about. **sigh**
Anyways…  That’s enough of my large rant….
I hope everyone is well and having a better time than I am at the moment! tongue
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Janine Janine NSW Posts: 232
2 11 Jul 2010
It sounds like your in a really difficult situation. I have friends who eat meat and also look at me funny when I try to talk to them about why I'm vegan and I too am not great at debating so when they want to argue I just hand them some of my animals Australia flyers or vegan books and ask them to read it. I tell them if they have any questions after then to ask me but only wants they have clear facts. If I where you, I would be asking your friend for proof of her side of the story.
After doing this with my friends, not only do they understand why I'm vegan but I have converted 1 friend and 4 family members to vegetarianism at least. And the only thing they can argue about with me now is whether I miss the taste of milk and cheese - and the answer to that is hell no!
Do you live in Nsw? I'd be keen to meet up. happy I too have no vegan friends.
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Jen Jen VIC Posts: 619
3 11 Jul 2010
Okay I have close friends that are like this (but don't want to actually work in the industry)
& having arguments with them is a pain!

->first off you should go read up on what goes on etc. (there are a lot of good books out there) or watch come documentaries. Get yourself well informed so that you can take on any argument :] .  ~ especially when it's by a philosopher, because they know how to argue a good point!

->Secondly your friend can't say this is biased if what the meat and dairy industry say is biased to. (you can research both sides... but most likely those industries would lie - they're here for financial gain, why on earth would they mention how cruel their practice is? that'd be bad business for them)

-> Quote some slaughterhouse workers (you can find these around) they worked in the field themselves, so they know what they're talking about and what they are doing...

-> As for her beliefs on "animals are here to serve us" I'm not sure what to do with that, there are some people out there who just think like that... sad really (no offense to your friend :] )  - maybe make a scenario if she was one of those animals?  (I know, pretty lame) or make her watch "meat your mea"t or "Earthlings" - if that doesn't move her, I dunno what will.

-> To be honest, I'd rather not exist if I had to endure a life of suffering... (in reply to they'd be no cows in the world if we didn't breed them) - and she has to know that yes, they do suffer... they may not voice it out (& then again they may) but they do [here's where the literature comes in]

-> As for brainwashed? Once again -> meat/ dairy industry and their "happy ads" & "beneficial health" and how we will die without meat & dairy and eggs etc. All for financial gain. They don't care about our health in the slightest. Their animals are diseased, sick and mutilated -> so you're eating death, disease and sickness. (once again literature will have more on this)

-> get a copy of the "Why Vegan?" booklet / pamphlet (it's very informal) & there is another to do with the environment.

-> Sure some of this is mostly about American food etc. But you can find stuff on Australia. - Animals Australia is a great start xD haha.
(I'm sorry I'll have to find all the links to give you about everything I am saying)

-> My friend lent me this book "Skinny Bitch" - Freedman & Barnouin ... it has some info on meat/ dairy and egg industry... and how bad it is for your health. (although it's about the American food industry - it's still very informal)


Lastly, don't listen to their crap they give you. Stand up for what you believe in.  I don't think anyone should change you because you're doing the right thing. :]
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Bridgey Didge Bridgey Didge NSW Posts: 26
4 11 Jul 2010
Janine said:
It sounds like your in a really difficult situation. I have friends who eat meat and also look at me funny when I try to talk to them about why I'm vegan and I too am not great at debating so when they want to argue I just hand them some of my animals Australia flyers or vegan books and ask them to read it. I tell them if they have any questions after then to ask me but only wants they have clear facts. If I where you, I would be asking your friend for proof of her side of the story.
After doing this with my friends, not only do they understand why I'm vegan but I have converted 1 friend and 4 family members to vegetarianism at least. And the only thing they can argue about with me now is whether I miss the taste of milk and cheese - and the answer to that is hell no!
Do you live in Nsw? I'd be keen to meet up. happy I too have no vegan friends.
Thank-you! ^_^ Thats a really good Idea about handing her the books and fliers first! I think I am failing at setting a good example and fighting for my case because I find it hard to retell the exact facts. If she reads them for herself perhaps she will finally see where I am coming from! I think that may be the problem- she has not read these kinds of things, therefore doesnt know why I feel the way I do. Thanks for pointing that out for me! happy I really want her and some of my other friends to read 'Ethics of what we eat'  By Peter Singer and Jim Manson because it really changed my life and how I view what we eat!.. Maybe I can get them all a copy this christmas! tongue
It just gets so frustrating because I can talk about this kind of thing until I am blue in the face, and most of my friends just roll their eyes and groan.
Congradulations on turning some friends and family vegetarian! ecstatic Thats great! I have my sister now seriously considering going Vegan after she read some of my books!!
Yep I'm in NSW, Im At Wagga Wagga at the moment at uni. Where abouts are you from?
Thanks for all of your help! happy
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Bridgey Didge Bridgey Didge NSW Posts: 26
5 11 Jul 2010
Jen said:
Okay I have close friends that are like this (but don't want to actually work in the industry)
& having arguments with them is a pain!

->first off you should go read up on what goes on etc. (there are a lot of good books out there) or watch come documentaries. Get yourself well informed so that you can take on any argument :] .  ~ especially when it's by a philosopher, because they know how to argue a good point!

->Secondly your friend can't say this is biased if what the meat and dairy industry say is biased to. (you can research both sides... but most likely those industries would lie - they're here for financial gain, why on earth would they mention how cruel their practice is? that'd be bad business for them)

-> Quote some slaughterhouse workers (you can find these around) they worked in the field themselves, so they know what they're talking about and what they are doing...

-> As for her beliefs on "animals are here to serve us" I'm not sure what to do with that, there are some people out there who just think like that... sad really (no offense to your friend :] )  - maybe make a scenario if she was one of those animals?  (I know, pretty lame) or make her watch "meat your mea"t or "Earthlings" - if that doesn't move her, I dunno what will.

-> To be honest, I'd rather not exist if I had to endure a life of suffering... (in reply to they'd be no cows in the world if we didn't breed them) - and she has to know that yes, they do suffer... they may not voice it out (& then again they may) but they do [here's where the literature comes in]

-> As for brainwashed? Once again -> meat/ dairy industry and their "happy ads" & "beneficial health" and how we will die without meat & dairy and eggs etc. All for financial gain. They don't care about our health in the slightest. Their animals are diseased, sick and mutilated -> so you're eating death, disease and sickness. (once again literature will have more on this)

-> get a copy of the "Why Vegan?" booklet / pamphlet (it's very informal) & there is another to do with the environment.

-> Sure some of this is mostly about American food etc. But you can find stuff on Australia. - Animals Australia is a great start xD haha.
(I'm sorry I'll have to find all the links to give you about everything I am saying)

-> My friend lent me this book "Skinny Bitch" - Freedman & Barnouin ... it has some info on meat/ dairy and egg industry... and how bad it is for your health. (although it's about the American food industry - it's still very informal)


Lastly, don't listen to their crap they give you. Stand up for what you believe in.  I don't think anyone should change you because you're doing the right thing. :]
Oh wow! Thanks so much! These are all great ideas! I think I definitely am going to lend her some of the books I have like- “The Ethics of what we eat” by Peter Singer and Jim Manson and ‘Eating Animals’ By Safran Foer. I have sent her the link to Earthlings, But I don’t think she was interested in watching it.
Its very frustrating because she does know that animals suffer in these industries, But doesn’t like to admit it for the sake of her argument! Even when I mention environmental factors she flogs it off and thinks that the world is fine and we are not really destroying it as much as people make out? And I just don’t know what to say to that- it’s an absurd way to think and view the world and I just don’t get her reasoning a lot of the time!
I think that it might be my way of explaining things that causes a lot of miscommunication as well. I have difficulty recounting a lot of the facts, or forget vital ones that I will remember 3 hours later and think- ‘Oh why I didn’t say that?’ So I think if I actually give her the information to read herself then she will hopefully see where I’m coming from and be able to decide for herself. happy I don’t think she has read or looking into these issues very thoroughly and maybe that’s why she doesn’t understand?  
Thank-you so much for your help and support! happy It means a lot to me! I will definitely do what you suggested!
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JaimieCS JaimieCS VIC Posts: 363
6 11 Jul 2010
My mum and dad sound just like your friend - and in my experience the best thing to do is just not talk about it. the whole - but the cows wouldn't be here if we didn't farm them loop of argument is impossible to break. You can try and educate them, but they'll never take anything you say or give them seriously because they think everything is totally biased.
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hayley la BAM ?! hayley la BAM ?! VIC Posts: 110
7 11 Jul 2010
i have a friend like this. she hunts and seems to like hurting animals (which i find disgusting) but she has been brought up that way so i am not blaming her for it or anything of the like. i don't think there is any way that i would be able to turn her, she is far too strong willed and ignorant of everything D8.
also my step-dad can not understand why i don't eat meat, "food chain" and stuff like that always come up. but mum on the other hand is supportive and all, and she agrees that the way that they treat the animals is disgusting and such, but says that she won't give up meat because of it (but i respect her because she is acknowledging it at least and she's my mum lol.) another thing my step dad says when i give my reasons is "but what about that vegetable, you're killing it, don't you care about it". and i just laugh. but yeah i shall finish rambling now.
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Hitler Hitler Iraq Posts: 465
8 11 Jul 2010
Wow i feel exactly the same but mine is pretty bad as most of you know i love fighting-fish and have a strong passion to protect them, Up untill march this year i had bred fighting-fish on a large scale, i had lots of friends some very close who were breeders too but when i realized what i was doing (selling fish to cruel people)was wrong, although it was extremely hard i had to tell the people around me (the breeders my friends) that i no longer believed what we were doing was right and i would no longer be apart of the cycle of cruelty. I lost all my fishy friends, i lost relationships with Aquarium clubs in Australia wide, i lost business and personal friendships with pet-shops owners and staff, i lost everyone around me involved in what was my hobby. But i care so much and i have adapted to only breeding fish in humane conditions but know a few months on im happy i made the decision to believe in what i do and never let anyone tell me how i feel but then again i respect other people opinions and if they want to do that its their choice i can only try and educate them. happy hope you understand....timo
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april-san april-san QLD Posts: 368
9 12 Jul 2010
If you want to practice arguing and get experience in debating a topic, you could always try joining the debating team at your school or uni happy They're always happy to take on people of any or no experience at all, and it really helps develop your public speaking and on-the-spot thinking skills. It's really fun too!
Then you can gain more confidence and skills in sticking up for the animals happy
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Tanya M Tanya M VIC Posts: 741
10 12 Jul 2010
I have always had trouble remembering the facts for the purposes of debating with people. I also get all worked up and feel under pressure in these situations which makes my memory even worse. But, I have found that continually reading and re-reading is making things stick better, so as well as carrying the leaflets around with me now, I read them again from time to time, to help make the info stick.

I have more to add to this thread but will do so later....my lunch break is finished!
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