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Abolitionist Veganism

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Compostkitty Compostkitty NSW Posts: 780
181 19 Dec 2009
there is a simple solution if you don't like how things are run on this site.
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Aimee Aimee VIC Posts: 957
182 19 Dec 2009
Haha!

Advoc8, I am not anti-abolitionist I am just saying in my opinion that I think that the right thing has been done with the forum. Unleashed is not just a place for animal rights community, it is a place for young people to talk about what they want to talk about in regards to animals, going veg, whatever else. If the majority of people making the posts about abolitionism were in high school it might be a different story. Although all ages are welcome here, there is no need to dominate because there are other forums for that like Veg Society of Queensland, VeganForum.com and, well...there's alot.
Until then, I think it's pretty clear that if people are interested in this thread they can check out abolitionist-online.com or just keep coming back here and see what's being added (I know I do!).
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soy soy NSW Posts: 100
183 19 Dec 2009
I've seen two forums get rundown by Abolitionist Veganism threads and posters in the past two or three months and frankly, it's making me stay away from here.
I don't have anything wrong with them, but the forums I frequent aren't FOR Abolitionists and it really bitters the mood alot.

Make your own goddamn forums if you have so much to say.
http://www.proboards.com/ is a good place to start.
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Aimee Aimee VIC Posts: 957
184 19 Dec 2009
soy said:
I've seen two forums get rundown by Abolitionist Veganism threads and posters in the past two or three months and frankly, it's making me stay away from here.
I don't have anything wrong with them, but the forums I frequent aren't FOR Abolitionists and it really bitters the mood alot.

Make your own goddamn forums if you have so much to say.
http://www.proboards.com/ is a good place to start.
sad That's crap. You are a good example of why I'm glad the threads merged. I hope you stick around!
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Pomi Pomi VIC Posts: 311
185 19 Dec 2009
O.O

I understand abolitionist veganism and I am an abolitionist myself, but you can't just shout your opinion to people and expect them to believe it. I don't care whether or not abolitionist veganism gets its own section, but the welfare approach doesn't have its own section either. I think it's fine under this topic. The forum isn't just for the huge debate about welfare vs. rights.

Jesse said:
This forum exists solely to support and inspire young people to make cruelty free choices and help animals. As abolitionists you've already made the choice to go vegan and so we applaud you. But this also means that you are not the demographic Unleashed needs to reach.
exactly.
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LV LV TAS Posts: 30
186 24 Dec 2009
Hi Sarah, I don't know if you are vegan, but if anyone is not vegan, how do they expect to end animal use? We have to be the change we want to see. Anyone who advocates ending use of animals, and is not vegan is like a slave owner asking others to end human slavery.

Maybe I came in on the end of this, but I'm gathering you believe that if someone doesn't agree with promoting further regulation of animals, that if they don't like it, they can leave the site. But that is not really being very open to discussion of ideas that are beneficial to a "movement" which has now become all about welfare, not about rights, all about further regulation and not about veganism.
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Compostkitty Compostkitty NSW Posts: 780
187 24 Dec 2009
LiveVegan said:
Hi Sarah, I don't know if you are vegan, but if anyone is not vegan, how do they expect to end animal use? We have to be the change we want to see. Anyone who advocates ending use of animals, and is not vegan is like a slave owner asking others to end human slavery.

Maybe I came in on the end of this, but I'm gathering you believe that if someone doesn't agree with promoting further regulation of animals, that if they don't like it, they can leave the site. But that is not really being very open to discussion of ideas that are beneficial to a "movement" which has now become all about welfare, not about rights, all about further regulation and not about veganism.
i am vegan and i said my comment because you were not happy with the forum itself not the whole argument because your topics got moved
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LV LV TAS Posts: 30
188 24 Dec 2009
All we are saying is give veganism a chance wink
The world is vegan, if you want it
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Lauren Elizabeth Lauren Elizabeth QLD Posts: 93
189 24 Dec 2009
Matt.  Y said:
advoc8 said:
http://www.veganoutreach.org/advocacy/resources.html

Incidently, one of the Animal Liberation groups here reproduced an Australian version of 'Why Vegan?'' but changed the cover to have the title 'GO VEGAN!' Not 'Try Vegan' or 'Why Vegan?' On the cover! See if you can get anyone with a meat habit to turn the cover, why don't you. No psychology audit done there ... It's not wise to scream at or preach to people you are trying to engage with.
Does anyone know where I can find an Australian version of the "Why Vegan" Vegan Outreach booklet? I go leafleting every weekend so it would be even better if I could buy some and get them sent to me, but I can print them too if need be. I can definitely see the advantages of using a thorough booklet, instead of a leaflet, at a place such as a university/high school.
Hey Matt! The Veg Soc. of QLD is where we get our Why Vegan Aussie version booklets, Maureen from the society is lovely and I am sure you can find her details on their site? otherwise let me know and ill organize some for you happy

I like them for leafletting too happy,they have the same book with Why Veg and Why Vegan (2 title options) so thats great happy they also have one that is called So You think you can be a Meat Eating Environmentatlist? best of luck mate,

L
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_Matt _Matt VIC Posts: 1567
190 15 Jan 2010
So, I'm yet to come across a non-Francione abolitionist on Unleashed... which I think is extremely disappointing for a variety of reasons.

Anyway, wondering what abolitionists -- and incremtalists -- have to say about this (a piece by Dr. Steven Best; probably my favourite academic of the Animal Rights movement):

MANIFESTO FOR RADICAL ABOLITIONISM: Total Liberation By Any Means Necessary
By Dr. Steven Best.

Part. III

The Guru (Francione) and his disciples come together in a dance of doctrine and dogma. Like Christian fundamentalists, Francione and his followers believe they possess the Truth while all others struggle in error. As Francione argues there is literally “no alternative,” only chaos and ruin, except for their approach based on obedience to law, peaceful education, and focus on individuals and consumption habits over institutions and productive imperatives stemming from global capitalism. For them, the world is black and white, answers are cut and dry, and complexity is reduced to the Procrustean bed of either/or, rather than enlivened through the dialectical logic of both/and.

According to the pacifist party line, militant direct action (MDA) tactics such as economic sabotage are ALWAYS wrong and NEVER effective. Excusing themselves from the work of analyzing the complexities and unique specific situations, Franciombes fashion a handy a priori “truth” and apply it mechanically to every action that has happened or will happen. Their ignorance of history is matched only by their mental rigidity. For over three decades, in dozens of countries throughout the world, in countless thousands of actions, liberators and saboteurs have freed hundreds of thousands of captive nonhuman animals; permanently shut down numerous breeders, “fur farmers,” and vivisectors; and convinced countless numbers of individuals to find gainful employment in careers other than nonhuman animal exploitation, while inspiring people worldwide to join the animal liberation movement.

In all this, Franciombes see no value or gain and, despite operations closed forever, they can only repeat the baseless claim that all damaged property is rebuilt and all liberated nonhuman animals are “replaced.” This may happen in some cases, but in light of the many operations shut down for good, this clearly is a false claim; even when animals are replaced and property rebuilt and restored, rising insurance costs are enough to weaken and jeopardize the viability of small and moderate operations at least. Whereas dogmatic pacifists hide under the cover of ignorance and denial, corporate exploiters themselves have testified to the effectiveness of ALF actions.[5]

By vilifying sabotage tactics as “violent,” and by conflating attacks on property with assaults on people, Franciombes adopt the reactionary discourse and position of the FBI and the corporate-state-media complex. They needlessly and divisively pit education in opposition to illegal tactics (even open rescues), as if the two tactics were irreconcilably opposed rather than complimentary aspects of a revolutionary process.

Despite some talk of capitalism, commonalities of oppression, and alliance politics, Francione ultimately pushes a simplistic, single-issue “go vegan” approach pitched to a white, affluent, privileged, Western audience, with no intent to engage people of color, working class families, the poor, or China and India – the world’s most populous nations now in rapid transition from maintaining traditional plant-based diets to embracing Western diets rooted in consuming “animal products” including flesh, milk, and eggs.

Francione thereby reinforces the dismal elitist, classist, and racist stigmas attached to activists for nonhuman animals since the beginning of “animal protectionism” in the early nineteenth century, and he further isolates veganism and animal rights from progressive movements and the social mainstream. Unable to articulate a structural theory of oppression, exploitation, and ideological hegemony, and mired in Western dualisms and the construction of false oppositions such as between production/consumption, individual/social, and psychological/institutional, Francione exculpates the logic and global machinery of capitalism to lay the entire burden of blame and responsibility on individual consumers.

Certainly, humans do have agency and need to take responsibility for transforming their personal lives, such as by engaging the ecological and ethical imperative to go vegan. But politically and pedagogically it is also crucial for citizens to recognize the formidable power of the structural forces in their lives and the ways in which sedimented economic and political institutions pose profound obstacles to teaching, learning, and progressive ethical and social change.  Psychological and ethical change is a necessary but not a sufficient condition of the large-scale social transformations needed for creating viable democratic and ecological cultures.

Internalizing the capitalist ideology of liberal individualism, this pseudo-abolitionist offers nothing but the most banal and tepid reformism which is no more effective in changing the overall social relations of domination than “welfarism” is in breaking the chains of speciesist oppression. Rather than advancing on Watson’s formulation, Francione offers a regressive and hollow version of a rich ethical political ideal opposed to all forms of exploitation and hierarchy.

--

For the rest of the piece, go to:
http://negotiationisover.com/manifesto-for-radical-abolitionism/

Look forward to everyone's opinions happy

oh and btw, aren't I good for using the correct designated-abolitionist thread? tongue
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