Animals Australia Unleashed
Change the World Who Cares? Videos Take Action! The Animals Community Forum Shop Blog Display
1 2 3
Your E-Mail: O Password:
Login Help     |     Join for Free!     |     Hide This

Post a Reply

b12 in unprocessed water?

1 - 10 of 17 posts   1 | 2  


Caelin Caelin VIC Posts: 10
1 26 Nov 2010
Okay so whenever I have a discussion with an intelligent meat eater about veganism, it inevitably comes back to vitamin b12 and primitive lifestyles... Humans need b12 in their diet, otherwise they develop mental disorders like bipolar and suffer from neurological damage after a few years without it. As most people know it's only obtained in modern diets from consumption of meat and dairy (because it is made by bacteria in cow intestines, animals that eat their own poo, and more often injected into farmed animals as a supplement) or from vitamin supplements in the form of cyanocobalamin where the bacteria that produce it have been grown on molasses in a factory. Apparently though, it is commonly found in river and dam water - created by soil bacteria! According to the internet... river water, or water that has not been treated with chlorine and fluoride (unlike most town & city water) contains an average of 1 microgram per litre...(more or less depending on the level of cobalt in the soil) which obviously means that humans have evolved to need b12 because of soil bacteria in their water supply over millions of years, not because of eating animals necessarily.

I cannot find any confirmed scientific studies however online. So, there are heaps of uni students on here... Go to your science department and get someone to test some fresh unprocessed water! Do it! Post it on here...

One article claims that the water in the Yarra river (Melbourne) was tested and contains a good level of b12 while being good quality drinking water in that part of the river.

happy
ReplyQuote

- - ACT Posts: 95
2 26 Nov 2010
If this turns out to be true, I'll finally have a response to the old "If we aren't meant to eat animal products, why do we need b12" question!
ReplyQuote

JaimieCS JaimieCS VIC Posts: 363
3 26 Nov 2010
Caelin said:
Okay so whenever I have a discussion with an intelligent meat eater about veganism, it inevitably comes back to vitamin b12 and primitive lifestyles... Humans need b12 in their diet, otherwise they develop mental disorders like bipolar and suffer from neurological damage after a few years without it.
That's completely untrue. They've only just started researching the links between B12 and mental health (and omega acids) and they have absolutely no conclusive evidence yet.

B12 is present in soil. The only reason vegetarians lack it in modern diets is because our vegetables are so thoroughly washed and processed. If we lived in a paeleolithic world, with a choice of adequate nutrition (as in, we didn't have to eat meat because it was the only available source of protein) we'd be fine for B12.
ReplyQuote

JaimieCS JaimieCS VIC Posts: 363
4 26 Nov 2010
I'm sorry if I misinterpreted part of your post, I thought you were saying you were trying to argue against meat being necessary for B12.
ReplyQuote

Caelin Caelin VIC Posts: 10
5 27 Nov 2010
Your statements are completely untrue.
I've done heaps of research on this.

It is very widely documented that b12 deficiency causes neurological symptoms: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_B12_deficiency

The unwashed veggies thing is an old regularly quoted myth, studies have been done on this and you would have to basically eat quite a bit of dirt to get your RDI unfortunately.

The numerous types of bacteria that create b12 don't just live in soil, they live in animals intestines, and most importantly, in untreated water - only I cant find a study with exact amounts, just dead links and unconfirmed reports. If it can be confirmed that an easily drinkable amount of river water has on average the approximate recommended daily intake of vitamin b12 made by these bacteria then that's a pretty significant argument against how "natural or "necessary" it is for humans to consume meat, it would mean we have evolved to require this vitamin as it has always been around us in the soil, water and food, as opposed to just from eating animals. That's why It would be awesome for someone with access to a lab or friend in a science dept to check it out and get some hard data!
ReplyQuote

Shorty Shorty QLD Posts: 479
6 27 Nov 2010
I have a creek down the road from where I live so if it is true about the b12, Is it safe to drink the water (its run off from the mountains so I think its clean) and would it be a good idea to start drinking it?
ReplyQuote

JaimieCS JaimieCS VIC Posts: 363
7 27 Nov 2010
Shorty said:
I have a creek down the road from where I live so if it is true about the b12, Is it safe to drink the water (its run off from the mountains so I think its clean) and would it be a good idea to start drinking it?
No.

I'm all for drinking unprocessed water, but you've got no idea what runs off into your creek, you'd need to boil it first and I'm not sure if that'd kill the bacteria, quite likely.
ReplyQuote

JaimieCS JaimieCS VIC Posts: 363
8 27 Nov 2010
Caelin said:
Your statements are completely untrue.
I've done heaps of research on this.

It is very widely documented that b12 deficiency causes neurological symptoms: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_B12_deficiency

The unwashed veggies thing is an old regularly quoted myth, studies have been done on this and you would have to basically eat quite a bit of dirt to get your RDI unfortunately.
If you read that wiki article you'll find two things.

one, B12 deficiency, not just a lack of dietry B12, can cause neurological symptoms. B12 deficiency isn't caused by low dietry levels, it's almost always caused by an inability to uptake B12.

two, B12 deficiency can cause symptoms normally associated with psychiatric disorders. they do not cause the disorders, the symptoms are reversed with B12 supplementation. generally the only case in which they dont reverse is if you have severe B12 deficiency during early childhood, when your brain is developing.

Yes but if you're talking about evolution, its likely that we needed less, and because of eating meat we've evolved to eat more. If that theory is true by the way, europeans would have a lower requirement than most african races, given their meat consumption has been far less over the course of evolution.
ReplyQuote

Clud Clud VIC Posts: 1559
9 28 Nov 2010
Is it okay to not wash vegatbles you grow yourself if you don't use pestisides and you use manure? Because then there would be some vB12 maybe on the surface of the vegatbles.
ReplyQuote

Caelin Caelin VIC Posts: 10
10 29 Nov 2010
Shorty said:
I have a creek down the road from where I live so if it is true about the b12, Is it safe to drink the water (its run off from the mountains so I think its clean) and would it be a good idea to start drinking it?
If it's got a good flow its unlikely to have much dangerous bacteria in it so you could probably drink without too much risk, only problem is whether up the line there is runoff from any agriculture which may leave pesticide and fertiliser residue and that case the nitrogen levels will increase algae and bad bacteria. Its hard to find any 100% clean water these day... although how that weighs up against the chlorine and fluoride in town/city water I don't know. Not worth risking it though since there is no data yet on whether there is actually a significant amount of b12 in there, and its safely available from other sources anyway!  



JaimieCS said:
one, B12 deficiency, not just a lack of dietry B12, can cause neurological symptoms. B12 deficiency isn't caused by low dietry levels, it's almost always caused by an inability to uptake B12.
Yes, deficiency it is uncommon in healthy adults because most of the population of earth eats meat and/or dairy which has high levels of b12, and most vegans take vitamin supplements...

JaimieCS said:
two, B12 deficiency can cause symptoms normally associated with psychiatric disorders. they do not cause the disorders, the symptoms are reversed with B12 supplementation. generally the only case in which they dont reverse is if you have severe B12 deficiency during early childhood, when your brain is developing.
That the symptoms are reversed via supplementation proves that lack of dietary b12 causes deficiency...so, if you don't have enough b12 in your diet over a few years you will become deficient and experience an array of neurological and physical problems.
Yep it can be reversed by taking supplements. So the issue is as a vegan, you have to get your b12 somewhere and since most of the once widely obtainable non-animal options are unavailable now (such as the combination of water/soil/food bacteria) or whatever, then we must consume fortified foods or cyanocobalamin supplements. Not even tofu or tempeh etc has any true b12 so some new vegans make the mistake of not taking supplements at all and rely on old/incorrect info...   I just want to confirm how much is generally found in unprocessed water because I think it would be a pretty damn awesome fact to have on hand!  =)
ReplyQuote

< Prev
 [ 1 ]  [ 2 ] 

www.unleashed.org.au