Animals Australia Unleashed
Change the World Who Cares? Videos Take Action! The Animals Community Forum Shop Blog Display
1 2 3
Your E-Mail: O Password:
Login Help     |     Join for Free!     |     Hide This

Post a Reply

Vegan + honey = ?

A little confused..

31 - 40 of 54 posts   1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6  


z1 z1 VIC Posts: 535
31 22 Feb 2011
Yvan said:
Aaron said:
Yvan said:
I personally separate accidental death and intentional death/exploitation just like I don't want to kill any ants but if I am driving I can presume that some might be run over which is different then wanting and trying to kill them.
but how can you make a moral distinction between killing the inhabitants of a land to use it to grow corn and stealing the food from the inhabitants of a land causing them to die.
Murder is murder. The insects dont care why they are being killed.
It's not all a numbers thing and intentions play a large part of moral decisions, just like a moral distinction is made between manslaughter and homicide by misadventure.
but to use my example, how would you answer.
Apply it to native indians to make it easier. Would it be better to slaughter them outright or take their food and let them starve? How could you say either is the moral high ground?
ReplyQuote

z1 z1 VIC Posts: 535
32 22 Feb 2011
Yvan said:
Aaron said:
But a question that hasn't been addressed is why should honey bee's be given more concern than the other insects purposely killed for unessential vegan items?
Such as?
you cant think of a non essential?
ReplyQuote

Contreras Contreras NSW Posts: 349
33 22 Feb 2011
Aaron said:
Yvan said:
Aaron said:
But a question that hasn't been addressed is why should honey bee's be given more concern than the other insects purposely killed for unessential vegan items?
Such as?
you cant think of a non essential?
Of the top of my head carmine, I would assume honey is just one of the bigger ones since it's sold by itself.
ReplyQuote

z1 z1 VIC Posts: 535
34 22 Feb 2011
I dont  know what carmine is
I would have said tea, coffee, alcohol, sugar, biscuits...
ReplyQuote

Contreras Contreras NSW Posts: 349
35 22 Feb 2011
Aaron said:
Yvan said:
Aaron said:
Yvan said:
I personally separate accidental death and intentional death/exploitation just like I don't want to kill any ants but if I am driving I can presume that some might be run over which is different then wanting and trying to kill them.
but how can you make a moral distinction between killing the inhabitants of a land to use it to grow corn and stealing the food from the inhabitants of a land causing them to die.
Murder is murder. The insects dont care why they are being killed.
It's not all a numbers thing and intentions play a large part of moral decisions, just like a moral distinction is made between manslaughter and homicide by misadventure.
but to use my example, how would you answer.
Apply it to native indians to make it easier. Would it be better to slaughter them outright or take their food and let them starve? How could you say either is the moral high ground?
That analogy is exaggerating my original point on intentions, are you also saying that you believe exploiting or slaughtering animals is morally the same as if some were unintentionally killed by plant processing or even walking? If so you are implying there is no point in being vegan if murder is just murder whether that be the slaughter of animals for meat or the killing of insects unintentionally because of plant harvesting?
ReplyQuote

z1 z1 VIC Posts: 535
36 22 Feb 2011
Yvan said:
Aaron said:
Yvan said:
Aaron said:
Yvan said:
I personally separate accidental death and intentional death/exploitation just like I don't want to kill any ants but if I am driving I can presume that some might be run over which is different then wanting and trying to kill them.
but how can you make a moral distinction between killing the inhabitants of a land to use it to grow corn and stealing the food from the inhabitants of a land causing them to die.
Murder is murder. The insects dont care why they are being killed.
It's not all a numbers thing and intentions play a large part of moral decisions, just like a moral distinction is made between manslaughter and homicide by misadventure.
but to use my example, how would you answer.
Apply it to native indians to make it easier. Would it be better to slaughter them outright or take their food and let them starve? How could you say either is the moral high ground?
That analogy is exaggerating my original point on intentions, are you also saying that you believe exploiting or slaughtering animals is morally the same as if some were unintentionally killed by plant processing or even walking? If so you are implying there is no point in being vegan if murder is just murder whether that be the slaughter of animals for meat or the killing of insects unintentionally because of plant harvesting?
I agree. there is no point being vegan if you believe insects deserve the same consideration as animals. There is no point in avoiding honey if you dont give other insects the same consideration.  

Yes the first part of the analogy was an exaggeration because bees dont die when you take their food. But other insects die when you take their land and poison them to make things like maple syrup (a vegan alternative). But I am suppose to believe  (due to veganism) that the latter is the moral high ground.
ReplyQuote

Lars Lars NSW Posts: 825
37 22 Feb 2011
Aaron said:
I also should point out that no one has denied that the process of making honey is unethical. But a question that hasn't been addressed is why should honey bee's be given more concern than the other insects purposely killed for unessential vegan items? People who have asked that have been answered with... "the process of making honey is cruel"
I havent really thought about that but seeing as you and Yvan seem to be having a friendly little argument about it maybe you'd like to tell us what you think instead of simply pointing out that we haven't raised that question, unless you haven't given it much thought either?
ReplyQuote

z1 z1 VIC Posts: 535
38 22 Feb 2011
page one,
""I personally dont eat honey but I'm not entirely convinced that honey is any worse for the earth and its creatures than other processed vegan products.""

to add to that, there positively ARE vegan products that are more damaging to the earth and its creatures than honey
ReplyQuote

Lars Lars NSW Posts: 825
39 22 Feb 2011
sorry I missed it, can't necessarily remember every single post, but it was broad anyway.

I suppose palm oil might be one..technically vegan but due to its harvestation.. not so much. I guess that might even carry over into human slavery with tea, cacao and coffee...

it's good to that kind of stuff brought up otherwise people'd never think about it
ReplyQuote

Contreras Contreras NSW Posts: 349
40 22 Feb 2011
Aaron said:
Yvan said:
Aaron said:
Yvan said:
Aaron said:
Yvan said:
I personally separate accidental death and intentional death/exploitation just like I don't want to kill any ants but if I am driving I can presume that some might be run over which is different then wanting and trying to kill them.
but how can you make a moral distinction between killing the inhabitants of a land to use it to grow corn and stealing the food from the inhabitants of a land causing them to die.
Murder is murder. The insects dont care why they are being killed.
It's not all a numbers thing and intentions play a large part of moral decisions, just like a moral distinction is made between manslaughter and homicide by misadventure.
but to use my example, how would you answer.
Apply it to native indians to make it easier. Would it be better to slaughter them outright or take their food and let them starve? How could you say either is the moral high ground?
That analogy is exaggerating my original point on intentions, are you also saying that you believe exploiting or slaughtering animals is morally the same as if some were unintentionally killed by plant processing or even walking? If so you are implying there is no point in being vegan if murder is just murder whether that be the slaughter of animals for meat or the killing of insects unintentionally because of plant harvesting?
I agree. there is no point being vegan if you believe insects deserve the same consideration as animals. There is no point in avoiding honey if you dont give other insects the same consideration.  

Yes the first part of the analogy was an exaggeration because bees dont die when you take their food. But other insects die when you take their land and poison them to make things like maple syrup (a vegan alternative). But I am suppose to believe  (due to veganism) that the latter is the moral high ground.
That's a very good point, insects would need to be poisoned for non-organic maple(never seen organic maple?) production and land clearing which would probably be a higher number then honey extraction or possibly egg/diary production? I guess it's more of a grey area because I am sure there would be a way of organically producing it without pesticides but that's the industry standard in our world for everything non-organic.

Definitely a purist area that gets a bit beyond what veganism hopes to accomplish similar to bone char in American sugar and I guess the point I made isn't the best to support the issue of honey but I would still prefer not to consume it because I intent to avoid as many animal products as possible.
ReplyQuote

 [ 1 ]  [ 2 ]  [ 3 ]  [ 4 ]  [ 5 ]  [ 6 ] 

www.unleashed.org.au