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Vegan + honey = ?

A little confused..

41 - 50 of 54 posts   1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6  


Mean people wear fur Mean people wear fur QLD Posts: 1087
41 22 Feb 2011
Aaron said:
I agree. there is no point being vegan if you believe insects deserve the same consideration as animals. There is no point in avoiding honey if you dont give other insects the same consideration.
You can still give other insects the same consideration, but you have to be realistic. People aren't going to stop using cars because they might have killed a few ants while driving, people aren't going to stop waving there hands around at flies and trying to squash them when they are near food, etc. You may not be able to stop these things, but you can try, and you can make a difference to at least one species of insect ( in this case, bees) by not eating honey. It's like vegetarians who still eat fish (Sorry, the name of them escapes right now so I just said vegetarians who ate fish); they may not be cutting out everything, but they are trying, and they are making a difference to all those pigs, cows, lambs, etc out there. Veganism is not about perfection.
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Chewie Chewie NSW Posts: 521
42 22 Feb 2011
Lars said:
if we choose too exploit something/or someone because we think less of them then that just becomes like the holocaust, racism, slavery...same kind of thing.
Eating honey isn't comparable to the holocaust, nor is it the same kind of thing. The bees aren't killed, and while some may die, it's no more than the insects that we actually kill on a daily basis. And much, much less than the millions of insects and animals that get killed during the production of our vegan food.
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wild child2 wild child2 QLD Posts: 2638
43 23 Feb 2011
Yvan said:
Aaron said:
Yvan said:
Aaron said:
Yvan said:
Aaron said:
Yvan said:
I personally separate accidental death and intentional death/exploitation just like I don't want to kill any ants but if I am driving I can presume that some might be run over which is different then wanting and trying to kill them.
but how can you make a moral distinction between killing the inhabitants of a land to use it to grow corn and stealing the food from the inhabitants of a land causing them to die.
Murder is murder. The insects dont care why they are being killed.
It's not all a numbers thing and intentions play a large part of moral decisions, just like a moral distinction is made between manslaughter and homicide by misadventure.
but to use my example, how would you answer.
Apply it to native indians to make it easier. Would it be better to slaughter them outright or take their food and let them starve? How could you say either is the moral high ground?
That analogy is exaggerating my original point on intentions, are you also saying that you believe exploiting or slaughtering animals is morally the same as if some were unintentionally killed by plant processing or even walking? If so you are implying there is no point in being vegan if murder is just murder whether that be the slaughter of animals for meat or the killing of insects unintentionally because of plant harvesting?
I agree. there is no point being vegan if you believe insects deserve the same consideration as animals. There is no point in avoiding honey if you dont give other insects the same consideration.  

Yes the first part of the analogy was an exaggeration because bees dont die when you take their food. But other insects die when you take their land and poison them to make things like maple syrup (a vegan alternative). But I am suppose to believe  (due to veganism) that the latter is the moral high ground.
That's a very good point, insects would need to be poisoned for non-organic maple(never seen organic maple?) production and land clearing which would probably be a higher number then honey extraction or possibly egg/diary production? I guess it's more of a grey area because I am sure there would be a way of organically producing it without pesticides but that's the industry standard in our world for everything non-organic.

Definitely a purist area that gets a bit beyond what veganism hopes to accomplish similar to bone char in American sugar and I guess the point I made isn't the best to support the issue of honey but I would still prefer not to consume it because I intent to avoid as many animal products as possible.
Surely even organic farmers use 'natural' products that kill insects......... just because something is natural or organic doesn't mean it's good
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Contreras Contreras NSW Posts: 349
44 23 Feb 2011
wild child2 said:
Yvan said:
Aaron said:
Yvan said:
Aaron said:
Yvan said:
Aaron said:
Yvan said:
I personally separate accidental death and intentional death/exploitation just like I don't want to kill any ants but if I am driving I can presume that some might be run over which is different then wanting and trying to kill them.
but how can you make a moral distinction between killing the inhabitants of a land to use it to grow corn and stealing the food from the inhabitants of a land causing them to die.
Murder is murder. The insects dont care why they are being killed.
It's not all a numbers thing and intentions play a large part of moral decisions, just like a moral distinction is made between manslaughter and homicide by misadventure.
but to use my example, how would you answer.
Apply it to native indians to make it easier. Would it be better to slaughter them outright or take their food and let them starve? How could you say either is the moral high ground?
That analogy is exaggerating my original point on intentions, are you also saying that you believe exploiting or slaughtering animals is morally the same as if some were unintentionally killed by plant processing or even walking? If so you are implying there is no point in being vegan if murder is just murder whether that be the slaughter of animals for meat or the killing of insects unintentionally because of plant harvesting?
I agree. there is no point being vegan if you believe insects deserve the same consideration as animals. There is no point in avoiding honey if you dont give other insects the same consideration.  

Yes the first part of the analogy was an exaggeration because bees dont die when you take their food. But other insects die when you take their land and poison them to make things like maple syrup (a vegan alternative). But I am suppose to believe  (due to veganism) that the latter is the moral high ground.
That's a very good point, insects would need to be poisoned for non-organic maple(never seen organic maple?) production and land clearing which would probably be a higher number then honey extraction or possibly egg/diary production? I guess it's more of a grey area because I am sure there would be a way of organically producing it without pesticides but that's the industry standard in our world for everything non-organic.

Definitely a purist area that gets a bit beyond what veganism hopes to accomplish similar to bone char in American sugar and I guess the point I made isn't the best to support the issue of honey but I would still prefer not to consume it because I intent to avoid as many animal products as possible.
Surely even organic farmers use 'natural' products that kill insects......... just because something is natural or organic doesn't mean it's good
According to wiki they use:
allowing for an acceptable level of pest damage;
encouraging predatory beneficial insects to control pests;
encouraging beneficial microorganisms and insects; this by serving them nursery plants and/or an alternative habitat, usually in a form of a shelterbelt, hedgerow, or beetle bank
careful crop selection, choosing disease-resistant varieties
planting companion crops that discourage or divert pests;
using row covers to protect crops during pest migration periods;
using pest regulating plants and biologic pesticides and herbicides
using no-till farming, and no-till farming techniques as false seedbeds;
rotating crops to different locations from year to year to interrupt pest reproduction cycles;
Using insect traps to monitor and control insect populations.

"using pest regulating plants and biologic pesticides and herbicides" - Seems to be the one that's similar to commercial farming. Back to the original question, i do agree that some vegan foods kill more insects then bee farming but it still isn't "vegan" since the coined term specially mentions avoiding honey and the main vegan organisations agree. However that is only if you care about the label "vegan", there is enough ethical comparison to consume honey while still withholding the same animal welfare concerns.
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Tangled.legs Tangled.legs VIC Posts: 39
45 10 Jul 2011
Im interested to see how many vegans eat honey.

I recently started a new job where I work with a vegan girl who made me a cup of tea and put honey in it which usually i don't consume..
I told her i don't usually have honey I don't exactly put it in the vegan category and she explained that she has been vegan for ages and consumes it as the bee's don't get hurt and so on and so forth.

Soooooo I've decided honey in my tea occasionally isn't bad at all.

What do you guys all think?
and how many of you can honestly say you eat honey and what are your reasons for not?

--
ADMIN EDIT: Merged into a previous vegan/honey thread. Please use 'search' to find relavant threads before posting new ones - thanks!
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...2 ...2 WA Posts: 2307
46 10 Jul 2011
As it stands, I'm a vegan who does NOT consume honey, however I often wonder about consuming it. Bees are essential to biodiversity- without them, life on Earth would cease to exist. When considered this way, supporting the production of honey can seem like a positive thing.

I think if you ARE going to be a vegan who eats honey, though, it should be from small, independently owned, organic apiaries that take the best care of their bees.
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TheSixthStitch TheSixthStitch Aruba Posts: 988
47 10 Jul 2011
I too don't eat honey, but it's more out of habit than anything. On the matter of choosing -as a vegan- to consume honey or not, I think will largely depend on _why_ you have chosen to become vegan and what your goals are. For instance, some may value bees far less than cows or chickens, which may give them a reason to not be so concerned with the welfare of bees and be more inclined to consume honey. Perhaps their veganism was driven by the plight of your regular farmyard animals, and not so much the peripheral stuff? Others may take a more principled approach and reject eating honey on the basis of how people think about other species (e.g as things to be used).

Pick your battles?
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Pegs Pegs VIC Posts: 1538
48 10 Jul 2011
If I had my own NATIVE bees, I would take SOME honey. Hardly any at all. I think its all about 'sharing is caring'    

If a little boy has a large pile of blocks, you don't take all of them, only a little bit. If someone has a cupcake, you don't eat all of it, only a little.

Thats what people fail to realise, I think. A cow has milk, you take only a little, and leave the rest for her baby. If you want wool, only take a little bit from the sheep, and only in the warmest weather.


Anyway, I think I've strayed from the 'Beezzz' I actually don't agree with the idea of farming bees, especially non native ones. By farming, I mean keeping bees in strange, white boxes. If you were to keep bees, you should mimic their natural habitat as much as possible. And too, I think, its all native Australian bees don't sting. But then people keep on making a fuss about honey bees that do sting, when they are supporting the companies that breed stingy bees.

Hmmm
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Pegs Pegs VIC Posts: 1538
49 10 Jul 2011
P.S Also, I can understand why people wouldn't want to eat honey. It is someone else's spew after all…

tongue
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Contreras Contreras NSW Posts: 349
50 10 Jul 2011
Vegetivorous said:
without them, life on Earth would cease to exist. When considered this way, supporting the production of honey can seem like a positive thing.
You will find that the commercial honey bees do not pollinate plants at the same rate as wild bees. Some problems with the decline of wild bee's have been attributed to the increase in honey production.
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