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Cesar Millan kicks dogs!

Watch the video to see proof :(

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wild child2 wild child2 QLD Posts: 2638
21 15 Mar 2011
Hedwig said:
wild child2 said:
Hedwig said:
wild child2 said:
I think you guys are all misinformed. The video has been edited and taken out of context. Cesar is never aggressive or abusive towards dogs. If you watch his actual episodes you will see the magic he works.

I've seen hundreds of his episodes and he has saved so many dogs lives not to mention rehabilitated thousands of dogs that would have been destined for death row.

The proof is out there that his methods work. We've used his methods with our dogs and have had an amazing turn around since. Which does not involve kicking them in a violent manner or even yelling at them.

So please don't diss his methods until you really understand them.
He NEVER hurts dugs, it's all psychological triggers, that 'kick' is actually just a tap on the hind to get the dogs attention.

What is cruel is owners that don't train their dogs properly and let them become vicious!
Im not misinformed, I have studied the man. He promotes obediance training by punishing bad behaviour rather than promoting good behaviour. There are better techniques, MUCH better techniques. He makes himself dominative over the dogs, thats why they obey but as I stated I dont agree with making a dog afraid of you as "respect"

And his episodes are not honest to watch, you can't say that isn't edited either. I've read a few of his books and my opinion is that he is wrong. Steve Austin in Australia trains some of our best quarantine, police and army dogs and he never ever uses these techniques; how do I know this? Because I've done a course with him. You have to make a dog to feel good, to respect the dog to train. This is absolute bullshit.

Sorry for raging.
Bet Steve Austin doesn't have a compound of 30 balanced ex red zone dogs living in harmony.

Sure they are edited like anything... but his techniques still work he wouldn't be so popular if they didn't.

There is more than one right way to train a dog it depends on what works for the individual.
Are you serious? Steve Austin gets his quarantine dogs from shelters and pounds, his team trains 30 at a time. They definately have emotional, mental and physical problems. His main dog King was abused as a pup and he was aggresive, now he's one of the best trained dogs in Australia.
Cesar too has dogs that have been emotional wrecks that are now perfectly balanced dogs.
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wild child2 wild child2 QLD Posts: 2638
22 15 Mar 2011
Hedwig said:
wild child2 said:
Hedwig said:
wild child2 said:
I think you guys are all misinformed. The video has been edited and taken out of context. Cesar is never aggressive or abusive towards dogs. If you watch his actual episodes you will see the magic he works.

I've seen hundreds of his episodes and he has saved so many dogs lives not to mention rehabilitated thousands of dogs that would have been destined for death row.

The proof is out there that his methods work. We've used his methods with our dogs and have had an amazing turn around since. Which does not involve kicking them in a violent manner or even yelling at them.

So please don't diss his methods until you really understand them.
He NEVER hurts dugs, it's all psychological triggers, that 'kick' is actually just a tap on the hind to get the dogs attention.

What is cruel is owners that don't train their dogs properly and let them become vicious!
Im not misinformed, I have studied the man. He promotes obediance training by punishing bad behaviour rather than promoting good behaviour. There are better techniques, MUCH better techniques. He makes himself dominative over the dogs, thats why they obey but as I stated I dont agree with making a dog afraid of you as "respect"
Well you obviously haven't studied the man enough if you think he uses fear to get the dogs to obey him. At the end of the day the evidence is out there that his techniques work.  He had rehabilitated hundreds of fearful aggressive dogs to be balanced submissive dogs.
Nothing has worked better with my dogs than Cesars techniques and my dogs are not afraid of me either, they are merely balanced dogs who know who their leader is.
Is your dog a balanced dog with no issues?
It doesn't matter if his techniques work, using a taser works at the end of the day but surely you wouldn't like that? And yes my dogs are balanced with no issues.
Yes but a taser would make a dog fearful and maybe aggressive. Cesars dogs do not have any issues is this not telling you something?
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wild child2 wild child2 QLD Posts: 2638
23 15 Mar 2011
Here are his main principles
None of them seem cruel to me? Just common sense.

PrinciplesMillan's work focuses on handling a dog with what he calls "a calm-assertive energy".[6] He approaches dog behavior by teaching dog owners to understand the natural needs and responses of a dog, to understand that dogs are pack animals, to assist owners in establishing their role as calm-assertive pack leaders.[10]

Millan prioritizes fulfilling and balancing a dog's primary needs:[10] exercise, discipline and affection—in that order.[18] In other words, it is the owner's responsibility to fulfill the dog's energy level through challenging exercise; to provide clearly communicated rules, boundaries and limitations[19] for the dog's behavior; and to give the dog affection at the right time. Millan encourages owners to give affection, but to give affection when the dog is in a balanced state of mind, not when the dog is fearful, anxious, avoidant or excited — when the affection itself can reinforce imbalance. According to Millan, a common pitfall for dog owners is to give a great deal of affection with very little discipline and even less exercise.[19]

Millan emphasizes the importance of walking a dog, not only for the dog's exercise, but for the owner and dog to bond—with the dog ultimately recognizing the owner as its leader. He also encourages owners to watch their dog for subtle cues in the dog's posture, movement and facial expression—to eliminate poor behavior before it arises or escalates. And he encourages owners to understand the profound effect their own attitudes, internal emotions and physical postures have on a dog's behavior, counseling owners to hold strong posture (i.e. shoulders high and chest forward) and to project energy that is calm-assertive.[8][20]

Millan also stresses that owners identify their dog in a hierarchy of three levels:

Firstly and most importantly, as a dog with canine rather than human needs.
Secondly, as a particular breed of dog — for example, a Boxer-Rottweiler mix — with a breed-specific energy level and behavioral instinct.[21]
Thirdly, as their individual dog, e.g. "Bella."
Millan is widely known for using vocal marks, e.g., his tsch or tsst[9] sounds, while working with a dog (rather than words, especially the dog's name), and he encourages owners to create their own unique sound that works for them.[20]

Millan stresses that when meeting a new dog, not to make eye contact, not to speak, and not to touch the new dog[10] — rather letting the dog approach on its own terms.
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Jacqui T Jacqui T NSW Posts: 796
24 15 Mar 2011
wild child2 said:
Here are his main principles
None of them seem cruel to me? Just common sense.

PrinciplesMillan's work focuses on handling a dog with what he calls "a calm-assertive energy".[6] He approaches dog behavior by teaching dog owners to understand the natural needs and responses of a dog, to understand that dogs are pack animals, to assist owners in establishing their role as calm-assertive pack leaders.[10]

Millan prioritizes fulfilling and balancing a dog's primary needs:[10] exercise, discipline and affection—in that order.[18] In other words, it is the owner's responsibility to fulfill the dog's energy level through challenging exercise; to provide clearly communicated rules, boundaries and limitations[19] for the dog's behavior; and to give the dog affection at the right time. Millan encourages owners to give affection, but to give affection when the dog is in a balanced state of mind, not when the dog is fearful, anxious, avoidant or excited — when the affection itself can reinforce imbalance. According to Millan, a common pitfall for dog owners is to give a great deal of affection with very little discipline and even less exercise.[19]

Millan emphasizes the importance of walking a dog, not only for the dog's exercise, but for the owner and dog to bond—with the dog ultimately recognizing the owner as its leader. He also encourages owners to watch their dog for subtle cues in the dog's posture, movement and facial expression—to eliminate poor behavior before it arises or escalates. And he encourages owners to understand the profound effect their own attitudes, internal emotions and physical postures have on a dog's behavior, counseling owners to hold strong posture (i.e. shoulders high and chest forward) and to project energy that is calm-assertive.[8][20]

Millan also stresses that owners identify their dog in a hierarchy of three levels:

Firstly and most importantly, as a dog with canine rather than human needs.
Secondly, as a particular breed of dog — for example, a Boxer-Rottweiler mix — with a breed-specific energy level and behavioral instinct.[21]
Thirdly, as their individual dog, e.g. "Bella."
Millan is widely known for using vocal marks, e.g., his tsch or tsst[9] sounds, while working with a dog (rather than words, especially the dog's name), and he encourages owners to create their own unique sound that works for them.[20]

Millan stresses that when meeting a new dog, not to make eye contact, not to speak, and not to touch the new dog[10] — rather letting the dog approach on its own terms.
Well done you checked up Cesar Millan on Wikipedia, I can assure you you will find just as many bad reports on him as much as good reports. You can have your opinion but don't tell people they are misinformed. There is a reason he is controversial, there is a reason animal behavouralists wont use his techniques. Im not going to continue arguing because this is just not going to end. If it works for you fair enough, but I will continue using positive techniques for dogs.
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wild child2 wild child2 QLD Posts: 2638
25 15 Mar 2011
I use Cesars techniques, I don't taser my dogs, I don't kick my dogs, I don't yell at my dogs, my dogs gets plenty of praise for the right behaviour, bad behaviour is ignored or shhhh'd.

I believe there is more than one right way to train a dog effectively.
Cesar does nothing to a dog that that own dogs mother would not have done (i.e. never cruel, only assertive)

There is a big difference between dog abuse and what Cesar does. These aggressive dogs would not respond to abuse or aggression. Assertiveness and Aggression are on totally different levels.
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wild child2 wild child2 QLD Posts: 2638
26 15 Mar 2011
Hedwig said:
wild child2 said:
Here are his main principles
None of them seem cruel to me? Just common sense.

PrinciplesMillan's work focuses on handling a dog with what he calls "a calm-assertive energy".[6] He approaches dog behavior by teaching dog owners to understand the natural needs and responses of a dog, to understand that dogs are pack animals, to assist owners in establishing their role as calm-assertive pack leaders.[10]

Millan prioritizes fulfilling and balancing a dog's primary needs:[10] exercise, discipline and affection—in that order.[18] In other words, it is the owner's responsibility to fulfill the dog's energy level through challenging exercise; to provide clearly communicated rules, boundaries and limitations[19] for the dog's behavior; and to give the dog affection at the right time. Millan encourages owners to give affection, but to give affection when the dog is in a balanced state of mind, not when the dog is fearful, anxious, avoidant or excited — when the affection itself can reinforce imbalance. According to Millan, a common pitfall for dog owners is to give a great deal of affection with very little discipline and even less exercise.[19]

Millan emphasizes the importance of walking a dog, not only for the dog's exercise, but for the owner and dog to bond—with the dog ultimately recognizing the owner as its leader. He also encourages owners to watch their dog for subtle cues in the dog's posture, movement and facial expression—to eliminate poor behavior before it arises or escalates. And he encourages owners to understand the profound effect their own attitudes, internal emotions and physical postures have on a dog's behavior, counseling owners to hold strong posture (i.e. shoulders high and chest forward) and to project energy that is calm-assertive.[8][20]

Millan also stresses that owners identify their dog in a hierarchy of three levels:

Firstly and most importantly, as a dog with canine rather than human needs.
Secondly, as a particular breed of dog — for example, a Boxer-Rottweiler mix — with a breed-specific energy level and behavioral instinct.[21]
Thirdly, as their individual dog, e.g. "Bella."
Millan is widely known for using vocal marks, e.g., his tsch or tsst[9] sounds, while working with a dog (rather than words, especially the dog's name), and he encourages owners to create their own unique sound that works for them.[20]

Millan stresses that when meeting a new dog, not to make eye contact, not to speak, and not to touch the new dog[10] — rather letting the dog approach on its own terms.
Well done you checked up Cesar Millan on Wikipedia, I can assure you you will find just as many bad reports on him as much as good reports. You can have your opinion but don't tell people they are misinformed. There is a reason he is controversial, there is a reason animal behavouralists wont use his techniques. Im not going to continue arguing because this is just not going to end. If it works for you fair enough, but I will continue using positive techniques for dogs.
I believe if you think that those taps with his foot are cruel or aggressive you are misinformed. You haven't seen enough of him to see the context or mentality in which they are used or how dogs respond in such amazing ways to him.

Sorry I wasn't arguing. I was just being assertive for what I believe. I've said again and again there is more than one way to train a dog correctly. Of course you are entitled to your opinion. It doesn't make mine wrong however.

Wikipedia or not those are Cesars techniques and there is nothing cruel about them. happy
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wild child2 wild child2 QLD Posts: 2638
27 15 Mar 2011
I read Steve Austin endorses spraying a dog with water when he practises unwanted behaviour?
I don't see how ssssh'ing or tapping a dog without aggression is any more or less stressful or fear inducing for a dog than being sprayed with water.

Neither of them induce pain merely discomfort.
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Jaydin Jaydin NSW Posts: 31
28 15 Mar 2011
Oprah Winfrey is not a reliable nor relevant authority on dog training. Or anything, for that matter. Wild Child, just because someone disagrees with you over a TV personality, you cannot then tell them "Well you haven't studied him enough," because it assumes everyone who has studied Cesar Milan 'enough' would have no disagreement about his methods. Which seems very, VERY far from plausible.

Here are some articles about relevant experts disagreeing with Cesar Milan and his methods:
- http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sophia-yin/experts-say-dominance-bas_b_204482.html?ref=fb&src=sp
- http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=990DE0DD1E3EF930A15751C0A9609C8B63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=1
- http://www.spokanimal.org/Newsletter9-06forweb.pdf

I'm sorry but personal testimony is just not reliable evidence when it comes to assessing dog training techniques. There are also a few things you say that are incorrect:

"He never does anything to these dogs that naturally an alpha dog in a natural pack wouldn't do." - This assumes that an alpha dog, or the 'natural conduct' between animals, is beneficial for the animal. A lion kills its step children so the mother will enter heat and it can impregnate her. But I would not say that just because the step children are treated like this it is 'right' for us to treat them the same way.

"I doubt a tap in the side is going to do any serious damage." - Maybe not physically, but the controversy is over psychological damage. Which is, in the long term, quite serious.

In short, as vegans we see that animals should be given the same consideration as humans. If you had the job of rehabilitating a disobedient child, let's say he was severely down syndrome (this rules out being able to reason with him), would you use these same techniques on this child? Take some of your words and apply them to humans, i.e. "I would never endorse it if I thought was cruel or abusive. He is not booting into the 'kids' with aggression." "He had rehabilitated hundreds of fearful aggressive 'kids' to be balanced submissive 'kids'. Nothing has worked better with my 'kids' than Cesars techniques and my 'kids' are not afraid of me either, they are merely balanced 'kids' who know who their leader is.
Is your 'kid' a balanced 'kid' with no issues?"

Now the intention is not to imply that you would condone or even use these techniques on children (let alone severely down syndrome children), merely to show that the exact same argument you give here can be used to defend such practices.
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Kirrilly Kirrilly VIC Posts: 2092
29 15 Mar 2011
Are you watching the same videos I am? It doesn't really matter what context it's in, he's still kicking a dog. I don't see how it's necessary. It's definitely a kick when the dog goes off-balance from it.
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Kirrilly Kirrilly VIC Posts: 2092
30 15 Mar 2011
And lifting a bulldog up by the skin of it's neck..? And the bit that starts at 4:48 of the linked video? This is disgusting!
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