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organ donation

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wild child2 wild child2 QLD Posts: 2638
141 7 Apr 2011
Akasha213 said:
wild child2 said:
any of us would be grateful for an organ donor if we needed it and I'm sure we wouldn't refuse if the organ donor came from a meat eater would we...
Personally I dont think I'd accept an organ either, so hopefully you dont think I'm being hypocritical.

I have no fear of dying and when your times up thats it, no point prolonging things.
And also, I find the idea of having part of a corpse in me disgusting & crreepy. Hence why I dont eat them!!
Who would look after your babies though?

If I had someone to live for, I'd fight to live, it would be different if I was already elderly and didn't have the best quality of life, but if you're young & people/companion animals are relying on you I'd have to fight for them!
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Jaydin Jaydin NSW Posts: 31
142 7 Apr 2011
Chewie said:
Do you realise how many children are abused by pedophiles Jaydin? An unfortunately staggering amount. The probability of a pedophile on a donor waiting list that your organ may go to isn't incredibly small at all. Certainly lower than meat eaters, yes, but not incredibly small or unlikely. A meat eating pedophile, probably. Nevertheless, it was to prove a point that an organ can go to all sorts of bad people.

I completely agree with the argument that not donating organs because it will probably go to a meat eater can actually diminish people's views of veganism. The responses from every person I've asked about this seem to reinforce this. I will be donating my organs and will continue to donate blood, and I personally think the view of not donating to not save meat eaters is extremist. That is my opinion and I am entitled to it. Done with arguing otherwise. happy
Yes Chewie, I do, and it is unfortunate. Assuming that there are currently 100 000 pedophile's in Australia at given time X (WAY more then there already are, as this article {http://www.watoday.com.au/national/child-abuse-cases-rise-in-australia-20100121-mmj6.html} shows there were approximately 34 000 cases of child abuse IN GENERAL in 2008-09), and at the same time X 2% of the population is vegetarian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetarianism_in_specific_countries#Australia), then the probability that the person is a meat eater is 98%, compared to the 0.5% chance they are a pedophile.

But you say a pedophile is just an example of any type of bad person an organ could possibly go too, so we'll look at crime statistics. In 2008-09 police took action against 1.286% of the population (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Australia). Granted, not everybody gets caught so for arguments sake we'll jack that figure up to 5%...a HUGE and unwarranted increase. STILL, the probabilities are 98% and 5% for eating meat and being a criminal respectively. If you want to stand by and say that a 93% difference is not big enough to warrant different moral considerations well you can go ahead but it seems clear you're wrong.

Chewie said:
One last thing though, what do you think of the children argument Jaydin? Surely that applies to this argument/thought pattern too?
I do think that everybody deserves a chance, but you do have to balance that thought with the fact that animals deserve a chance as well, and it's a bit rough to take a chance with a whole heap of animals lives because one kid MAY become a vegetarian. It's a bit harsh on the animals.

I must state that I'm still trying to find where I personally stand on this issue, as I have not resolved the conflict between the two arguments I have supplied. I do not have a position as of yet. I'm just arguing vigilantly because I don't feel people had seriously considered the argument for not donating organs that seriously yet.
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Chewie Chewie NSW Posts: 521
143 7 Apr 2011
Jaydin said:
Yes Chewie, I do, and it is unfortunate. Assuming that there are currently 100 000 pedophile's in Australia at given time X (WAY more then there already are, as this article {http://www.watoday.com.au/national/child-abuse-cases-rise-in-australia-20100121-mmj6.html} shows there were approximately 34 000 cases of child abuse IN GENERAL in 2008-09), and at the same time X 2% of the population is vegetarian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetarianism_in_specific_countries#Australia), then the probability that the person is a meat eater is 98%, compared to the 0.5% chance they are a pedophile.

But you say a pedophile is just an example of any type of bad person an organ could possibly go too, so we'll look at crime statistics. In 2008-09 police took action against 1.286% of the population (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Australia). Granted, not everybody gets caught so for arguments sake we'll jack that figure up to 5%...a HUGE and unwarranted increase. STILL, the probabilities are 98% and 5% for eating meat and being a criminal respectively. If you want to stand by and say that a 93% difference is not big enough to warrant different moral considerations well you can go ahead but it seems clear you're wrong.

I do think that everybody deserves a chance, but you do have to balance that thought with the fact that animals deserve a chance as well, and it's a bit rough to take a chance with a whole heap of animals lives because one kid MAY become a vegetarian. It's a bit harsh on the animals.
I think there's a much higher instance of child abuse than that article suggests. Most of the cases go unreported. 1 in 3 women are abused by the time they are 18. With regards to 'bad person', I'm not just referring to criminals (or criminals that haven't been caught). You can be a bad person and not be a criminal happy

I don't mean donating organs to a kid, but rather having children (sorry if you understood this, but I wasn't certain from what you've said). By that logic, should we not have children ourselves? Because they will probably eat meat in their lives, etc? This argument can extend quite far if you want it to.

Jaydin said:
I do not have a position as of yet. I'm just arguing vigilantly because I don't feel people had seriously considered the argument for not donating organs that seriously yet.
Personally, I don't feel the need for myself to vigilantly scrutinise data/statistics or question whether I should donate organs/blood... Because I don't see the problem with it at all; I will continue to donate blood regularly and I will be donating organs. Most people on here are in the same position it seems. Lots of happily obliging veg blood/organ donors here: http://www.unleashed.org.au/community/forum/topic.php?t=1218& (I've only skimmed this thread, but although one person seemed to touch upon the same concerns yourself and Paul have, it seems responders thought of as damaging to veganism).
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Arieluxable Arieluxable QLD Posts: 190
144 7 Apr 2011
Just something to think about..

How many of you would consider giving up on veganism tomorrow?

None? Ok..

Wouldn't you agree that if I decided to give up on veganism and continue eating meat for the rest of my life  it would have the same effect as if I were to die tomorrow and donate my organs to an omni?
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PaulV PaulV NSW Posts: 47
145 7 Apr 2011
Arieluxable said:
Just something to think about..

How many of you would consider giving up on veganism tomorrow?

None? Ok..

Wouldn't you agree that if I decided to give up on veganism and continue eating meat for the rest of my life  it would have the same effect as if I were to die tomorrow and donate my organs to an omni?
please dont give up on veganism and please dont die tomorrow happy
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*** *** WA Posts: 36
146 7 Apr 2011
Arieluxable said:
Just something to think about..

How many of you would consider giving up on veganism tomorrow?

None? Ok..

Wouldn't you agree that if I decided to give up on veganism and continue eating meat for the rest of my life  it would have the same effect as if I were to die tomorrow and donate my organs to an omni?
Veganism to me is a natural progression, a way of life that encompasses all living beings, the planet we live on, but more than anything else ~ Respect.  

You can't control what other people do or think, and you may not like (a lot) of that, but being judgemental doesn't get a lot accomplished.  

Putting *conditions* on a gift of life goes against the whole concept of organ donation.
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Arieluxable Arieluxable QLD Posts: 190
147 7 Apr 2011
I'm not saying I wouldn't donate my organs to a meat-eater. I decided at a young age that I would donate my organs and my family is aware of my choice.. I was simply making a point for people to consider in the hopes that we could all acknowledge that it's not exactly black and white.
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Akasha213 Akasha213 VIC Posts: 227
148 7 Apr 2011
wild child2 said:
Akasha213 said:
wild child2 said:
any of us would be grateful for an organ donor if we needed it and I'm sure we wouldn't refuse if the organ donor came from a meat eater would we...
Personally I dont think I'd accept an organ either, so hopefully you dont think I'm being hypocritical.

I have no fear of dying and when your times up thats it, no point prolonging things.
And also, I find the idea of having part of a corpse in me disgusting & crreepy. Hence why I dont eat them!!
Who would look after your babies though?

If I had someone to live for, I'd fight to live, it would be different if I was already elderly and didn't have the best quality of life, but if you're young & people/companion animals are relying on you I'd have to fight for them!
They're taken care of in my will. Granted its not the same thing as being with them but I know they'll be looked after. And probably better than I could if I was really sick.
But I'm not intending on dying tomorrow happy
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Jaydin Jaydin NSW Posts: 31
149 7 Apr 2011
Chewie said:
I think there's a much higher instance of child abuse than that article suggests. Most of the cases go unreported. 1 in 3 women are abused by the time they are 18. With regards to 'bad person', I'm not just referring to criminals (or criminals that haven't been caught). You can be a bad person and not be a criminal happy
Yes I agree, and that's why I increased the rate of crime in Australia by more then 4 times...even if you double that figure, you still have an 88% difference between meat eaters and other morally corrupt people in the population. I'm sorry but I don't think you can realistically increase that anymore.

Chewie said:
I don't mean donating organs to a kid, but rather having children (sorry if you understood this, but I wasn't certain from what you've said). By that logic, should we not have children ourselves? Because they will probably eat meat in their lives, etc? This argument can extend quite far if you want it to.
While I agree with you in that there is a possibility the child will become a meat eater, the probability is significantly lower then the 98% chance of an organ going to a meat eater. While that alone would warrant a significant difference to make the case irrelevant to this debate, there is another difference: having a child affords a much greater bond and chance for communication and education about veganism then the organ donation system could ever come close too.

Chewie said:
Personally, I don't feel the need for myself to vigilantly scrutinise data/statistics or question whether I should donate organs/blood... Because I don't see the problem with it at all; I will continue to donate blood regularly and I will be donating organs. Most people on here are in the same position it seems. Lots of happily obliging veg blood/organ donors here: http://www.unleashed.org.au/community/forum/topic.php?t=1218& (I've only skimmed this thread, but although one person seemed to touch upon the same concerns yourself and Paul have, it seems responders thought of as damaging to veganism).
I didn't actually scrutinise data, I only brought it up because you were saying the probabilities weren't as disparate as I was making them out to be. But even when we multiply the statistics by about 8, it still favours my case. I do feel the need to question whether I should donate organs or blood, for the same reasons I questioned eating meat - because just being a common social tradition is not enough to make it an ethically acceptable practice.

I don't see the point in showing me other members have a consensus on the issue, as it says nothing of the arguments used to reach that consensus.
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*** *** WA Posts: 36
150 7 Apr 2011
Since Nitschke and Voltaire aren't returning my calls, this might be the solution ~
http://web.ics.purdue.edu/~ssanty/cgi-bin/eightball.cgi


The link didn't post too well, so please copy and paste the whole line wink
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