organ donation | Animals Australia Unleashed

PaulV NSW • Posts: 47

11 4 Apr 2011

no you cannot decide where you organs go, i contacted the organ registry. They have an all or nothing policy, you either donate knowing it could go to anyone or you dont donate at all

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PaulV NSW • Posts: 47

12 4 Apr 2011

Chewie said:

Jaydin said:

I've never actually thought about this before, thank you for turning me onto this topic! I think a few people have missed the direction of the OP's question (or maybe I have, who knows), but I think the gist of it is this: by donating your organs, you save human lives. But seeing as vegans (and to a lesser extent vegetarians) are a tiny minority of the population, your organs have a very high probability of saving a meat eater. Assuming the meat eater has 20 years left to live after your organ donation (a conservative estimate), and that one vegan saves 40 animal lives a year (another conservative estimate), your organ donation essentially saves one human life, but contributes to ending 800 animals lives. Seeing as veganism holds that humans and animals are equal, that's essentially ending 799 lives (net).

Now I understand not everyone here sees morality as a numbers game, (i.e. consequentialism) but if the question is framed in a different light, the answer is still the same. Say that even after knowing (to an almost certain degree) that a person will kill 5 innocent people if saved, you still save them from death. A few days later, those 5 innocent people are murdered by this person you have saved. Surely to some degree you are partly responsible for the deaths that took place given the high probability to which you knew the intentions of that person? Surely you can't use the excuse that you think morality is about 'saving lives?'

Similarly, given the high probability that your organs will save meat eaters, surely you are partly responsible for the pain and suffering of those 800+ animals? The person you saved is contributing to a genocide of other species, one could not save Hitler or Stalin and say they were just 'saving lives.'

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:-/

that is precisely my point. If you place the same value on an animals life as you do on a humans life, which I absolutely do then you are consequently killing a lot of animals. I would be heart broken if even one little ant was trodden on by someone I helped save. I dont harm ANYONE but the chance that it will happen is very high

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Jaydin NSW • Posts: 31

13 4 Apr 2011

Chewie said:

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:-/

I really hope you don't actually believe what you've written. Im sorry, but that sort of moral high ground, ridiculous argument is exactly why some people hate vegans.

Is my argument so ridiculous as to not need engaging? Who is taking the high ground when you won't even bother to attempt refuting my reasoning? Just because you asked, I don't subscribe to straightforward utilitarianism, so no, I don't believe the above conclusions, but what I am saying is those vegans/vegetarians who do subscribe to utilitarianism (and there are a lot), if following their ethical theory to it's conclusions must hold organ donations as immoral. Unless you'd like to bother to show otherwise.

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Jacqui T NSW • Posts: 796

14 4 Apr 2011

PaulV said:

Chewie said:

Jaydin said:

I've never actually thought about this before, thank you for turning me onto this topic! I think a few people have missed the direction of the OP's question (or maybe I have, who knows), but I think the gist of it is this: by donating your organs, you save human lives. But seeing as vegans (and to a lesser extent vegetarians) are a tiny minority of the population, your organs have a very high probability of saving a meat eater. Assuming the meat eater has 20 years left to live after your organ donation (a conservative estimate), and that one vegan saves 40 animal lives a year (another conservative estimate), your organ donation essentially saves one human life, but contributes to ending 800 animals lives. Seeing as veganism holds that humans and animals are equal, that's essentially ending 799 lives (net).

Now I understand not everyone here sees morality as a numbers game, (i.e. consequentialism) but if the question is framed in a different light, the answer is still the same. Say that even after knowing (to an almost certain degree) that a person will kill 5 innocent people if saved, you still save them from death. A few days later, those 5 innocent people are murdered by this person you have saved. Surely to some degree you are partly responsible for the deaths that took place given the high probability to which you knew the intentions of that person? Surely you can't use the excuse that you think morality is about 'saving lives?'

Similarly, given the high probability that your organs will save meat eaters, surely you are partly responsible for the pain and suffering of those 800+ animals? The person you saved is contributing to a genocide of other species, one could not save Hitler or Stalin and say they were just 'saving lives.'

...

:-/

that is precisely my point. If you place the same value on an animals life as you do on a humans life, which I absolutely do then you are consequently killing a lot of animals. I would be heart broken if even one little ant was trodden on by someone I helped save. I dont harm ANYONE but the chance that it will happen is very high

This is a vicious cycle and it wont end- no matter what human, vegan or not, you are hurting something. And no vegan is 100% cruelty free but you can do your absolute best. I find your opinion can be argued with the butterfly effect. But in my personal opinion, if I see someone collapse on a street I wouldn't think twice before trying to save them. If they survive, yeah they're going to be negative to the world, human existence has a negative influence on the world but we all bring a positive. So lets say the person on the road is a meat eater- they kill animals to survive. But what if they're also a surgeon? They're saving lives. You just have to sum up the balance and see if the postive outweighs the negative.

I can't say that I don't care where my organs will go- I mean, I don't want them wasted on someone who binge drinks, gives up to get the surgery and then starts again with this new kidney. But I don't have that choice, and morally I can not judge a person for their lifestyle choice. They are still a life, they may have a family who adores them and in some miniscule way, they are a positive influence on someone elses life. I will donate my organs and hope the person is thankful for what they get.

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Akasha213 VIC • Posts: 227

15 4 Apr 2011

I often wondered about what other people thought of this.

I've put lots of thought into it and decided not to be an organ donor.

I do everything I can in my life to help animals so why would I do any differently in my death.

I dont want to be responsible for keeping someone alive who'll be responsible for the deaths of however many innocent creatures.

You never know who it will save. What about if it went to a known murderer? Would you be happy with that? And if not, what's the difference between them and any other meat eater except the species they've killed?

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Jacqui T NSW • Posts: 796

16 4 Apr 2011

Akasha213 said:

I often wondered about what other people thought of this.

I've put lots of thought into it and decided not to be an organ donor.

I do everything I can in my life to help animals so why would I do any differently in my death.

I dont want to be responsible for keeping someone alive who'll be responsible for the deaths of however many innocent creatures.

You never know who it will save. What about if it went to a known murderer? Would you be happy with that? And if not, what's the difference between them and any other meat eater except the species they've killed?

I understand where you're coming from and your response is quite logical, but in my heart I can't agree. There are many "what if's" in the world but you should also assess probability. In this case, with a known murderer, they don't have a great access to the public health system and I remember studying a case on this for my HSC- its very unlikely that they get on top of the waiting list. Legally they should, but morally people try to prevent it. For them to get your organ is very unlikely. And again, this whole world becoming vegan is very unlikely.

I give blood- I don't know where it goes but I do know that it is very likely saving a life. That is how I see my organ donations. It will most likely go to a meat eater, yes, but it could also go to someone who is loved, who has a family, who is adored. And if any of my family member's need an organ, I wont be pissed at them for going on the list because they eat meat, I'll be thankful they got a second chance. A life is a life, no matter what their lifestyle choice is.

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Akasha213 VIC • Posts: 227

17 4 Apr 2011

Hedwig said:

I understand where you're coming from and your response is quite logical, but in my heart I can't agree. There are many "what if's" in the world but you should also assess probability. In this case, with a known murderer, they don't have a great access to the public health system and I remember studying a case on this for my HSC- its very unlikely that they get on top of the waiting list. Legally they should, but morally people try to prevent it. For them to get your organ is very unlikely. And again, this whole world becoming vegan is very unlikely.

I give blood- I don't know where it goes but I do know that it is very likely saving a life. That is how I see my organ donations. It will most likely go to a meat eater, yes, but it could also go to someone who is loved, who has a family, who is adored. And if any of my family member's need an organ, I wont be pissed at them for going on the list because they eat meat, I'll be thankful they got a second chance. A life is a life, no matter what their lifestyle choice is.

It's definitely a personal choice and everyone has their own reasons, none of which are any less significant. But it is interesting to me to see what other people think of it.

But personally I just think that the last thing I'm able to do should be to help animals.

And if I cant guarantee that the person I'm helping isnt going to knowingly harm anyone (particularly innocents like animals and small children) then I cant bring myself to be responsible for them in that way.

I honestly cant say how I'd be about it in a different situation, but not knowing the person I have to say no.

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*** WA • Posts: 36

18 4 Apr 2011

As a vegan I try to live a cruelty-free life, and that extends to all species, omnivores included.

There's just no room for *hate* of any kind, and it saddens me that some people are so extreme in their beliefs that they think it's ok to do so.

Education is the key.

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xMISSMONSTERx WA • Posts: 2582

19 4 Apr 2011

regardless of vegan or not, anyone who has consciously chosen NOT to be an organ doner, this next question is aimed at you.

Is your mum/dad/sister/brother/best friend etc a vegan? (probably not) Would you give your organs (or even life) if it would save theirs?
Organ donating is no different, your organs are going to go to someone who is loved and who would be missed dearly if they didn't get it. Everyone looks at the negatives and thinks "well what if a muderer gets it?" well, what if a poor little girl dies because of your selfishness?

When I'm dead, medicine can do whatever the hell they want with my body, I'd rather they harvested my organs/tested on my body rather than an animals. In life you spent your time saving lives, in death you can do the same. Organ donating is a selfless act, and there are things in place to stop certain people from being able to get certain organs, like overweight people (who won't stop eating terribly) or alcoholics etc.

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Akasha213 VIC • Posts: 227

20 4 Apr 2011

xMISSMONSTERx said:

regardless of vegan or not, anyone who has consciously chosen NOT to be an organ doner, this next question is aimed at you.

Is your mum/dad/sister/brother/best friend etc a vegan? (probably not) Would you give your organs (or even life) if it would save theirs?
Organ donating is no different, your organs are going to go to someone who is loved and who would be missed dearly if they didn't get it. Everyone looks at the negatives and thinks "well what if a muderer gets it?" well, what if a poor little girl dies because of your selfishness?

When I'm dead, medicine can do whatever the hell they want with my body, I'd rather they harvested my organs/tested on my body rather than an animals. In life you spent your time saving lives, in death you can do the same. Organ donating is a selfless act, and there are things in place to stop certain people from being able to get certain organs, like overweight people (who won't stop eating terribly) or alcoholics etc.

This reply sounds very defensive and agressive.

I dont think I'm selfish. I've made a consious personal choice based on my life and beliefs. I just stated my reasons and didnt question anyone elses.

Plenty of people choose not to donate their organs for other personal reasons. Some people for religious reasons, some for finality. A friend lost her toddler and she's a supporter of organ donation. However she chose not to donate her daughters organs because it was too much for her to keep her dead child on life support for a further day. Do you think that's selfish?

Thats part of the thing isnt it. You could help a murder or you could help a little girl. Who knows.
If a little girl died it was because she was sick or injured. Maybe getting an organ could have helped save her but that's not WHY she died. And maybe donating an organ could have helped but I still cannot be the responsible person for her life without knowing what I'm responsible for.

As I said, I dont know what I'd do in a different situation than being dead and keeping alive an unknown person. However if it was someone close to me and I wasnt dead, I would be around to have help and hopefully influence the way they are.

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