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Please help me educate...

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JKM JKM TAS Posts: 58
1 17 Feb 2012
I posted a status on facebook:

"When you defend your right to wear fur and leather, that is VANITY. When your palette defines your moral choices, that is GLUTTONY. When you express your divine right to dominion over other species, that is PRIDE. And when you get defensive when people remind you of the fact that your daily choices force billions upon billions of animals into enslavement, immense pain, a life void of any compassion and merciless slaughter, that is MORAL COWARDICE."

& got these comments in response:

"omfg you have to be f**ken kidding jessy as a friend i beg of you focus your energy on real issuies"

"That's a very blanket statement, that all animals raised for food are forced to suffer horrible conditions and a painful death. It's also a statement you can't possibly prove to be true. I imagine there are plenty of animals that have lovely lives and are killed as humanely as possible. Also, with regards to having dominion over the animals, God made man in His image, He didn't make animals in His image. Ergo, we are superiour to them. Also, I can't be bothered checking right now, but I reckon Jesus ate meat, and if He could eat it, surely we can."

I just never know what to say or how to articulate myself very well.

JKM JKM TAS Posts: 58
2 17 Feb 2012
My Aunt just posted this too.

"sorry hun but if you read your bible you will see god put some animals on earth to cloth and feed us, it's just the in humane killing you should be worried about and crulty to animals for sport.sorry you are affende by food and cloths ."

JKM JKM TAS Posts: 58
4 17 Feb 2012
Ok but that doesn't help because I am a Christian lol.

JKM JKM TAS Posts: 58
5 17 Feb 2012
Ok, I did my own research, & asked a vegan Christian & this is my response:

"First of all it doesn't say ALL animals. It says billions.

"Despite having the same capacity to suffer, farmed animals such as pigs, sheep, cows and chickens are denied the protection of animal cruelty laws that protect dogs and cats. This means that it is legal to cause suffering to animals raised for food. This includes painful surgical mutilations (without pain relief) and in most cases intensive and unnatural overcrowding or confinement.

There are over 500 million animals confined like this in factory farms in Australia today. These are places where thinking, feeling animals are considered little more than production units. Factory farming practices have been developed at minimum cost to the producer, and at great expense to the animals.

Pigs are argued to be one of the smartest species outside the primate family, yet in factory farms, mother pigs may legally be confined in barren metal cells so small that they cannot even turn around. They endure the trauma of having their babies torn from them and watch on helplessly as their piglets' teeth are painfully clipped, their tails are cut off, and the males are castrated—all without pain relief.

Cows raised for dairy may also have their tails cut off, and male calves grown for their meat suffer castration without anaesthetic. But that's not all. Calves may be 'disbudded'—a process in which the sensitive horn tissue is scraped out of their skulls or burnt with a hot iron. Cattle that are not 'disbudded' as calves may face having their horns painfully cut off prior to transport. There are also up to one million cattle in feedlots in Australia, kept in groups in pens and fed high protein grain diets and denied any opportunity to graze.

Chickens often have the tips of their beaks cut off with a hot bladebefore being crammed into battery cages where they spend their lives in a space smaller than the size of one A4 sheet of paper. Unwanted male chicks are gassed or ground up alive. Hens raised for meat spend their six-week lives stuffed in sheds at 20 birds per square metre. Bred to grow at 3 times their natural rate, they suffer crippling, broken bones, lameness and even death from heart failure."

"God put animals on this Earth to be part of his creation, not for the sole purpose of filling our stomachs and covering our skin. Genesis chapter one verse 29 God grants man the right to eat all green plants and fruits and seeds. He grants this not just to man but to all creatures. God does grants the Dominion over animals in Genesis chapter one verse 28. He does not however grant the eating of any meat until Genesis chapter 9 after the great flood and he grants it to Noah. Therefore our dominion and our right to eat meat are two very different concepts. More to the point God granted the eating of plants and the dominion of animals before the fall, but didn’t grant meat until after the fall. The eating of meat is nothing more than an extension of our sinful life. Just because God granted us the right does not mean that he approves. After the flood also granted us the right to continue our existence without ever destroying man in such a ay ever again, that does not mean that God will approve of us, just that he won’t destroy us like he did. But I digress.
In The book of Isaiah chapter 11 we are given a glimpse of what the New Earth will look like. Isaiah says: “The wolf will live with the lamb, the leopard will lie down with the goat, the calf and the lion and the yearlings together; and the little child will lead them. The cow will feed with the bear, their young will lie down together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox. The infant will play near the hole of the cobra, and the young child put his hand into the vipers nest. They will neither harm nor destroy on all my holy mountain, for the world will be full of the knowledge of the LORD.”
So you see in the new creation God says there will be no slighter of animal nor human, we will be vegan as we were in the beginning before the fall. God may not condemn man for eating meat, but it should be our Christian duty to be vegan now. Because we are the Kingdom now on Earth with Christ at our lead. And if we are to be vegan in the End, then Vegan we should be now. Because how can we be a light to the world if we continue to case our lives of the senseless cruelty and abuse of creatures who like it or not are part of God’s Creation. Those christians who judge veganism clearly have not read enough of their Bible. Other wise they would see that God takes pleasure in no death. Not human, not animal. Love is the way. And vegans are just ahead of the game and are capable of loving more than our own kin.
Also it is worth mentioning that not a single time in the new testament is it mentioned that Christ ate meat. I can’t prove that he was vegan/ vegetarian. But the only thing that comes close is when he feed 5000 with bread and fish, although the greek word used more accurately means “fish-weed” a see weed commonly eaten on those shores. Thought that might be worth mentioning."

And with so many options for food and clothes that causes no suffering to animals, why as compassionate human beings would we prefer to choose to continue choosing options that involve death?"

Lars Lars NSW Posts: 825
6 17 Feb 2012
In regards to addressing real "issues" you could mention some stats on how refraining from eating meat frees up enough food sources to end world hunger four times over, as well as reducing pollution, it also costs alot less and takes up less resources and space to produce a large amount of plant food versus livestock  - money which you as a consumer could be used to sponsor children or put into worthy causes.

I think it's in the christian spirit to be compassionate, there is immense cruelty and pain in the industry and its only logical that the christian spirit extends to prevents unnecessary harm where there is harm, its no different to preventing cruelty in companion animals. We are in a position where we can eat amazing food that is healthy and delish and not contribute to the pain....I dearly wish this would be addressed in churches....(i grew up in a christian family)

Genesis 1:29
“And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat”

Deuteronomy 5:17
“Thou shalt not kill.” (i don't recall it proving exceptions)

Genesis 9:4
“But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.”

Psalms 104:14
“He causeth the grass to grow for the cattle, and herb for the service of man: that he may bring forth food out of the earth;”

Romans 14:21
“It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.”

Im sure there will be people whipping out things about "after the fall"... but is that really a  justification for being bad?

some goes for being allowed to eat meat after the flood seeing as there wasn't enough plant food for Noah & family, but that's a survival situation! KFC, Mc Donalds, supermarkets western society generally doesn't fall into that category

hope some of that helps.


Lotus Eater Lotus Eater QLD Posts: 60
7 17 Feb 2012
Try this.

The status of animals rights is, of course, subjective. However, when such simple steps can be taken to reduce the suffering of concious organism (yes, just like you and I they are capable of feeling pain), the refusal of doing such could only be considered extreme selfishness.

KirstyGirl KirstyGirl TAS Posts: 754
8 18 Feb 2012
I don't believe it but if you're talking to other christians you can always point out the fact that Gods perfect world, the Garden of Eden was vegan!!! Therefore as man we should try to be better and live in the way that God originally wanted.

If you google "Jesus vegan" you'll get a heap of articles arguing that Jesus was in fact vegan and what I stated above about how God's intention was for all of his creations (all animals since we are animals too) to live in harmony with one another. ie. not killing each other and eating each other.

Also as far as the Bible argument goes... people seem to take the bible way too seriously and seem to forget that it was not in fact written by god but by people with flaws and ideas of their own. I saw a quote the other day stating the fact that the bible mentions unicorns no less than 8 times throughout... still take it seriously?

(not a Christian myself, I believe in evolution! However, I do talk about these issues a lot. My father is a deputy principal at a catholic school and religion teacher and will often bring up these points with the priests and students alike. The priests do believe that the Christian religion is changing for the better to believe that God did not create animals to be humans slaves and meat. The Christian faith is starting to respect animals more.

We must remember that the bible was written in a time where humans would and thought they had to use animals in order to survive. They were their lively hood. It's no coincidence that these values coincided with what is written in the bible.

Carmen for the animals Carmen for the animals VIC Posts: 14
9 19 Feb 2012
Firstly thank you sharing this with us. it gives us reason to think deeper about the issues we support as well knowing that we share a world with people that aren't always as like minded as us, in their ways of thinking but mostly to help you come to a point at which you can help yourself in these situations. A person that comes to mind is Dr Walter Hadwen and he was one of the greatest minds of his time but his radical views on medical and social matters that got him into trouble with the powers of his time and that was in the 1870's!!! He was a vegetarian and started on his road to vegetarianism when he was either 21 or 22 and he wrote a letter at the time to a friend about this stating:
" For my part I am quite  satisified with my trial of vegetarianism, and it would take more than a moral power to persuade me to once again to make my stomach a graveyard for the purpose of burying dead bodies in."
He was already aware and upset at the realisation of the sufferings of animals for the killing of their meat. He was a christian and he often remarked that "To my own Master, I stand or fall"
If you wish to read about him further you can find out about him at the website  Dr Hadwen Trust for Humane Research.

I guess summing it up, I think some Christians today forget that they too were once persecuted for their beliefs and animal rights activists face these same challenges, especially when we try to educate others about it. Then we face those "silly arguments" from people like "How do you know animals feel pain?" or  "Humans' lives are worth more than animals' lives" or someone will say "We can't just release all the farm animals and laboratory animals into the streets" I mean you can answer:  "that is not going to be a real life problem as not all meat eaters, vivisectors, companies that test on animals and other animal exploiters aren't going to stop in one day unfortunately" and that in their questions about "we know animals feel pain because " Humans and other animals have common ancestors, and therefore have similar nervous systems, and exhibit similar responses to similar things such as hearing a noise so they look around, etc." so if they hear,see and smell things, why could they not feel pain? They might say  "Animals eat other animals, so meat-eating is natural" Factory Farming is hardly natural and meat eating is natural to other animals not us. You can add alot of things when you think about logical reasoning in your explanations of your beliefs, or being questioned. Just be confident and give yourself time to learn because just like many subjects, it takes time , sometimes years to become fully knowlegable. I wish you all the best !! happy