Honey? Yes or no?

I think i'm nearing a year and a half....

I put honey in my tea... ALL the time...  and on Cereal.

OH also, I drink Mead a fair bit and it is my tradition for when I feel like being merry alone.


Agave isn't that nice and I think it can go off without giving any sign of it,
except making you want to puke bitterly after using it, having opening it a while ago.

I don't like cane sugar in everything or anything much and sweetners are I
believe; as synthetic alternatives the body CANNOT process... SO SO MUCH worse.

Even when talking as a Vegan, the amount of energy and material,
put into creating artificial ingredients... considering everything we use and make,
to be pretty much all toxic lol... to the environment ( made up of animals of every sort )...
far more detrimental.

For instance... my mum gets diet ginger beer... so basically is trading cane sugar...
for 4 artificial sweetners, most of which the body can't process at all... [and most artificial chemical compound we make, can't be broken down in nature, mostly cosmetic and household bathroom type stuff]

It sounds too risky for my liking. And without time travel, I can't stop
Cane Toad introduction, so... I think Cane sugar is much better in moderation (of course).

But still... like I said... the idea of putting refined sugar in my tea :<


Anyway, I hardly have an excuse for it... Veganism to me is a utility, as a term of use and word in every day contexts. I have non-Vegans telling me i'm Vegan even if I eat honey.

This works for me.... it means I have to talk less in stupid social situations,
also it puts less expectation on me to have to specify what I don't want in my food.


Again personally; I put my 'Veganism' down to the will and desire to have minimal impact...
I can cope, thrive and survive on minimal input... infact eating more than this basis...
generally makes me feel crud. Variety in practice is almost as important as in substance I think.

But anyway... so the idea for me is... If I can get by on less and I don't enjoy eating;
or feel I shouldn't take more than I can give back to Earth (in a quintessential sense),
then of course I will avoid eating something which costs so much - a life.

None the less, I can easily grasp impact and qualitative relativity,
where an attitude, purely traditional (accepted biggoted practice) or cultural (spiritual and experience taught) treatment of animals can be worse or no better than death, by cause of afflictions and so on. Though mostly mass production and opportunistic urgency that make rifts withing ethical, moral and 'accepted' forms of living and/or stimulating work from a people; causes the common concern/qualm.

I get the feeling most Vegans, morality and the appealing nature of an ideas asthetical thought basis, are often confused. Clarity being simply something is unappealing or gross rather than taken to be or rather fullyl understood as being a moral failing or issue as much as simply a personal one.

I mean..... it is so evident it is sickening... but that is my thinking of the thought of a WHOLE society with the most severe case and illest form of double standards ever existent... because it is one of the first civilisations to recognize itself as a whole... with a detailed accessible world map in mind where everything is 'apparently' discovered, explored and known. And then persist in worsening it' standard. Also this includes the layers of history and eras; socially accepted common sense and standards of practical and wayward thought. All the implications being more fanciful than ever factual or influential beyond being a mind bluff. So barely an excuse exists to blame society or government for; ignorance, subversion, intolerance and person degradation esp. when most opinion or constraint is presumed into existence. Rather than having or ever being stated by the assumed antagonist 'the establishment'; mostly likely flaws within it are of those profiting from allowances and making a living in the gaps between public services... not the body in place to regulate and monitor. Admitedly it often takes on roles and influence to negatively gear its systems with stress and general oppressive outsets, to promote prosperity in theory and cause greatness out of struggle

Like pruning a tree so it flowers longer.... I feel... all this suffering and parallels of luxury and suffocating poverty being indicriminate or chance based; aswel polars of well being... are purely... caused for frivolous, ephimeral purpose - aesthetic.  Often plants will flower when they're under threat... roots disturbed or they hit bad soil or something drastic... so they have a better chance of procreating. They flower when existence is challenged... but this doesn't make them any better off or healthier. As a society we may put on a pretty face... flowering all the time... but when living in an ornamental garden... is it worth all the heart ache.


Within all of this... I like to pretend people have individual-variable taste... otherwise the line taken on one popularized example... fills me with an incurable wall of dread... a rain shadow.. looking at this towering cage of oversights.

Apposing one thing whole heartedly and doing another probably greatly worse.


But yeah what is the moral stance with Bees.


I simply say ~ input ~ look at what we do to ourselves, just by the way we have come to function and work. If this society was taken care of like a Bee-keeper touring and tending, defending and progressing their bees. I'm not so sure we'd be worse off.

Without Bee keepers... making a 'PROFIT' OH NO SOMEONE IS LIVING ABOVE BASE LINE POVERTY. Something like the invasion of the European bee would have gone unchecked and probably un-noticed.

They are a far greater threat on bee well being... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L54exo8JTUs

European bees are agreesive, infestating hives of native bees, taking up most natural and other strange residences native bees need or wouldn't. Like near population.

They don't produce honey, which I guess is a relief for some.

But that just means they are left to be 'natural' uncontrolled by man... to be cruel... and slaughter just a they are by hornets.

so have a european be mimic native bee in a hive, then hatch out young and destroy the colony... OR have some human take an interest in a product of the animal... and TRY to take care of them... in many different ways also inducing interest and cause for study that might not happen... like... how does honey act in the body and why did Egyptian reveere it?

But yeah... it is, i'd like to think a peronal preference.
People don't feel like being apart of that... not so much condemn the existence OF it...
otherwise... the reality is rather stark for all these animals we have no sharing relationship with anymore. There are some benefits to being human subjects of interest... just the more fanciful the interest the more desire it seems to inherently have and suffering follows. Think Poachers and having exotics as slaved lives in the country of apparent origins of respect... is like having a fast car on caped out roads of suburbia... or a solid gold watch when you can't read the time. So being a 'common' Bee.... after years of this relationship of compassion settling down... I think is not a bad deal for bees that I have heard... of thus far


IF you have information, which noone seems to in the age of it... losing niches of wisdom to general knowledge and 'IQ' *shudder.. but please feel welcome to share

None of which facotored into me eating honey haha, more circumstantial... and experimental... some context people don't even relate to, some/alot of timesz.



Night  ~ s2 ~

I always look out for your comments Casper because they are so unique but I have come to the conclusion that I am just dumb! Because I barely ever understand a word of them, and just when I think I'm  starting to get it then I don't.. Lol... Think maybe its coz I use simple words and ure very smart and know alot!  Anyway--- first I had no idea it was possible for agave to go off, but I guess it would never last that long in my house, I use a jar every week almost! Two weeks perhaps. And on a personal note again, and I know we cannot be perfect at everything but if I know I'm causing severe harm and pain to someone (eg bee) then I don't see why eating the product it's put in pain for is worth it, and for honey? Pfft I used to love it but sooooo not worth it. And yes an individual choice but agave IS a good sweetner,  perhaps try it and decide for yourselfand don't just listen to us rant on about it being good and bad on Here . Have a nice happy day all xoxo

It always amazes me when I hear scientists talk about theories regarding why we don't have that many bees anymore... I've heard everything, even mobile phone use has been linked to it, they were talking about getting rid of mobiles for the sake of the bees, are we really going to go there before we even think of letting them eat their own f*cking food???! Insanity!

Vegans don't eat anything that comes from an animal. A bee is in the animal kingdom, therefore anything it produces is not appropriate to be consumed by vegans. Honey is an animal product, not a plant product.

I always found honey disgusting, anyway. Agave nectar and maple syrup are far better alternatives. I'd much rather eat syrup from a plant, than vomit from an animal.

ty, i'm terrible with compliments.

me neither about agave... but it was water+just opened tea bags+ agave... I felt errk and it just made sense, being the agave I donated to the reading room.. being unused for too long

yeah, I wasn't being critical of any individual... its' good that you can make the distinction AND act upon it :3 it is a really good thing

but there is my confusion when you lead into saying 'when you know it is causing severe harm'...

to talk about it literally.. in the contexts of common knowledge...

Humans havn't even for one recognized insects to feel pain (not talking terms of opinion)...
which is infuriating... BUT ... on a more humble note... with this great step of understanding not having been accepted by many people... is it known and how... that 'severe harm or pain' is being caused upon honey bees by collecting their honey.

Maybe my ideas are too romantic or .. archaic rather of the methods...

But yeah that is gross that people... I won't call them human.. because these actions are often in the mind set and states personal individuals cause rather than when they are instinctively being human...  

..sorry.. gross that people would even try to replicate let alone brashly replace bee food... with sugar or some naive formula...  

obviously they take way too much ...

but again... rational gets me...  I can't see this being entirely true... because if this was happening to the bee populations keepers hive... ... they would be doing a dis-service to their OWN business. if the next generation of bees were suffering... there would be no prospect of such a business or practice being viable or sustainable.

No bee keeper would let that happen? Let alone cause it..

though not much in Humanity suprises me Esp taking little notice of rhetoric.

I'm not sure about wild aust honey bees.. all I know is that the european bee threat is so great... most the grass roots bee industry is trying to stop the infestation/spread. Last I heard they gave up on erradication.

This is a funny topic for me...

Considering I spend so much time in fasination with bees, or waiting 45mins sometimes on one flower to get a photo I think does justice to them.

It wouldn't be hard/difficult for me to stop using honey... as mentioned, I don't enjoy food. But to me at the moment based on all information I have... inc school camps and travelling around australia as a child.. and visiting a bee farm and honey factory...

To me it is still a benign comodity, in my mind.

Here are a couple of my latest shots:

http://sta.sh/0t5cc18vkvq

http://sta.sh/02b8z16u0z8t

older two:

http://sta.sh/09hk06tl2tq

http://sta.sh/0himw84o8nq


I'm terrible at choosing, so will just put the shiny ones.

Will finish putting together Gifs and share them if anyone is interested.




~  s2  ~


Bees,

They are very busy, diligent and mind their own activity.

I can stand there for an hour... inches from a flower...
With their flight paths being demanding, like a butterfly,
trying to catch draft just to leave your yard.
They speed off in strict arks and so don't like you being in their way,
but will find ways around and go about working, taking your presence into account.

But when the sun is setting, they will buzz loudly, to let you know,
they have no time for patience as they hastily rush from flower to flower.
Their balance and agility is tested by their driving force, of impeding earth'shadow.

SO they are grumpy at the end of the day, but still won't sting you,
as they aren't buzzing because you're a threat, but just letting your senses know,
where they are, so that you can keep clear as they face the danger,
of the ever tightening, closing flowers for the night or fall.

I love to keep out of the way,
but I also like to get in close and be out of the way.
Notice the way I breathe is differently and if I falter,
or day dream, one will zoom, keeping me at my desired task.


p.s. nectar is vomit from a flower,
bees collect, compose and process it into an edible mass.

Vomit? Like kissing a love whose been suckling flower nectar all day...

is a little different from the sort of thing you encouter on any given 'night out'...

which is fully acceptible in this society. Some how.

I'd feel like a pervert kissing flowers all day,
bees make it more practicle, even if giving more room for discretionary revolt.

One of the funniest notions i've heard...

the sort of thing, if I ever found myself in a serious situation,
I can imagine myself bursting out with an intangible,
in-explicable laughter.

That Bee Pollen people use as a remidy,
is Pollen.. not collected by people with implements....

But dusted off... of individual bees, ONE at a Time.

It makes me cry giggling at the human folly...

that people can't A. collect pollen themselves,
B. make a bee go out busily, then dust the Pollen off...
C. the most bizare string of thoughts follow.

It is too funny to contemplate this as a reality.

Of course it could easily be taken seriously..
but Wow.

Amazing photos Casper!!!  As for the rest I think I'll just stick to no honey and you can stick to yes honey

Your Photo's are amazing Casper!!!

Casper, you should make a Flickr account and network your photos. They're very good. I have a few honey bee and wasp photos on my camera at the moment, too.

aw thank you! I didn't mean to steal the show.

when I take photos out of chronology,
they show up nicely in contrast...

but when you see the amount of fuddling around...
these sit flush in a stream of duds.

I mess about alot with settings...
could probably teach photography I know too much :<

haha I find it a sad thing... I love instinctively approaching shots,
not with all these alternatives and protocols set on my mind...

with internal dialogues like "if this happens then it is this or that,
or I can change this and this but then this will happen... welp damn moment passed"

haha my journey with the D70 is more representative in my mind,
by all the shots I chose to miss, or procrastinated on

but yeah, srsly if you have any questions,
my camera manual brain will try to help

wasps! those critters are almost elusively cunning

oh OH! have you seen those super-bees,
the wiggly waggly fast vivid yellowy ones?

they are more fluffy and I think more temperamental than humble

those barely stay long enough to sniff a flower,
but I see them around if I'm in a spot long enough


~aaanyway so it is a nonchalant I eat honey at the moment, from me,

I really feel to be a happy and healthy Vegan (sigh) one should be
rather light hearted...

I mean... to say huge statements like:
"I DON"T EAT ANY ANIMAL PRODUCTS"
et cetera...
it is almost like "I AM THE GURU MESSIAH!"

In that ... can it really be said truthfully?

To not let myself be hurt...
I don't say it... so when/if (not being able to trust other people,
to be diligent as me when making me food)....
i'm not overly let down, shattered or bitter.

I just leave it... and move on.
The dish that is haha... I still grumble on the inside...
but without that internal carving in my mind...
which almost becomes a support if let occur...

I'm not completely gutted,
having to think about the diametrics,
lying to myself, by another's inability to read
and their ignorant trust of companies to be wholesome in nature,
honest in constitution and of their own presumptions,
from case based 'generally accepted truths' failing
this 'just trying to be validated in helping one's self openly'.

I mean... of course... it is a good thing...
but who can really say it as an absolute?

So it might sound weird, but it is subtle and not very much thought out:
not being absolute and strict along the rigid guidelines of VEGANISM
only leaves room for self... and much less room for ego (the negative connotation)..

there is positive ego also.

But yeah....

so it isn't a big deal for me
but only in absence of a substance I can relate,
to then aptly add into the greater issues I hope to be triumphed.

Really what it comes down to, for most of these things,
is a debate about the use of a term and what its' definition is...
like we're debating the dictionary meaning more than anything
which should influence ethical proficiency.

Maybe these work to denote, though only in being so general:

sequacious logomachy

I regularly eat Weet-bix multigrain, which I think has a little honey in it, but I don't add honey to anything- I prefer maple syrup anyway.

As Casper said, I use 'vegan' as a label that explains, in simple terms, what my dietary preferences are to those who are providing food for me (at restaurants, for example). The important thing is not to lose sight of the goal and get caught up in semantics- I do my part for animal welfare, and for the environment, and it's those things which count. I don't eat meat substitutes because the processing required to produce those is far more energy intensive than egg production, for example, and I'm not a huge fan of the taste.

Plus, I have to say, I don't feel a whole lot of compassion towards bees versus, say, cows or pigs. Maybe I'm heartless. Who knows.