Make it possible

If this is not a self-fulfilling prophecy, I don't what is.

In essence, you are saying is that veganism shouldn't/can't be promoted because it isn't commercially viable enough. Did I get that right?

I find it interesting that you say that disseminating a vegan message is 'preaching'. Would it also be preaching to disseminate a message of anti-rape, anti-racism or anti-sexism? If not, why not?

In sum, you say that AA can't ever do anything more than promote happy animal products to the masses because that is all they are A) ready for, B) capable of understanding and C) willing to accept.

Not only that, but we as vegans should be willing to accept a slightly 'less cruel' life for other animals because that is all we can hope to achieve in our lifetimes. By promoting veganism as the moral baseline for animal rights, we are being too divisive, too unpopular and too unrealistic, is that about right?

That's not what I meant by preaching. And yes, right now, it's just not a smart move. Hopefully after this campaign people will be more aware about animal cruelty and in the years to come, vegan campaigns on tv will not be an unrealistic venture.

Yes but it's one thing to state that there are no laws to protect farm animals nor the "standards" of free range farming, another to actually have the laws and legislations backing up your discussion, and giving credit to the words coming out your mouth.



I gained over an hours one-on-one time with the principal advisor of animal welfare, and have discussed the matter of factory farming with someone who not only currently owns an intensive farm, but is migrating towards outdoor farming.
I've been vegetarian the entire time I conducted the research I did. And during this time and discussing my research, I have turned another vegetarian and multiple people off caged eggs.
Considering the research project is compulsory for students in south australia, I think I spent my time pretty decently.

So yes, I do think I spend my time productively.

If animal's australia were to attack every non-vegan for being non-vegan, or confront these people in every one of their campaigns, campaigns like ban live export wouldn't have received any where near as much support as it has.

If you would have tried to preach a message of anti-rape or racism several 100 years ago (or even less!)  a lot of people would have disagreed with you. Though looking at where we are now most people strongly oppose those acts and they are a punishable offence in most countries. They didn't become illegal overnight, it took years of small law changes until they become outright unacceptable. I.e. At a certain period in Australia rape of a woman out of marriage was not allowed, but it was still okay to rape your wife.

The point being is that you need to channel your message to the time you are living in, and who your target audience is. The fact is that most people are not vegan, do not sympathise with animals to the same extent as we do, and are not willing to make a big change to their lifestyle. If we just tell these people to go vegan, then we are probably not going to have much success. Though if we give them options like reducing their meat intake, or going vegetarian then there is a chance they will go vegan in the future. And even if they don't go vegan, then at least they are having less impact than if they were to make no change at all.

Haha, like many people, I totally cried when I watched this. I think one of my friends summed it up when she said 'I couldn't help but cry when the chicken choir was singing so perfectly with its full orchestral backing'.

Also, West Side Story FTW

I am so glad AA made this campaign. It was campaigns like this that are responsible for my journey into vegetarianism, and hopefully veganism soon.

After hearing about the use of sow stalls over five years ago when I was still in high school, my family decided to give up all pork products. Then about a year later we became pescetarians when we discovered the environmental impact the meat industry has. We continued this way for about three more years, educating ourselves steadily with information similar to make it possible until we finally gave up fish and this year we have been weaning ourselves off dairy. I plan to attempt to give up eggs as soon as my exams are finished.

It was learning about factory farming which started me on this journey, and I hope it will have the same affect on others. Baby steps totally works, and without giving myself the growing room to make mistakes, stand up, dust myself off and try again without feeling overly guilty about it, I wonder whether I would've made it this far.

Thank you for this video, AA, that I can use to help others like me

I'm afraid animal rights isn't about what is commercially viable. After all, this isn't about *us* because we are not the ones in the slaughterhouses.

I keep hearing that 'right now' isn't a good time for vegan education. Perhaps I should have led with this question then to clear up the confusion: When will be a good time?

... so what? I really don't understand your point.

I can't fathom how you think that we can change the status quo by not even *challenging* the status quo. That is what I take from what you have written.

Again, this quote is applicable:

"What an idiotic absurdity it is to say that earnest, persistent, uncompromising moral opposition to a system of boundless immorality is the way to strengthen it; and that the way to abolish such a system is to say nothing about it."

Why have we reduced animal rights to a marketing campaign?

What you have really highlighted here is the inherent limitations of these large animal welfare organisations: They will always be ultra-conservative; they will always target the low hanging fruits; they exist to make profits, hence they must target the *widest possible audience* in order to facilitate their own growth and profit margins.

I'm sorry, but I do not *care* what you think works best on mainstream television. I have already said I believe that real change comes from grassroots activism from vegans advocating *veganism* (imagine that?!??!?!).

This is elitist and utterly false.

The vast, overwhelming majority of people have not even *thought* about these issues on any critical level whatsoever, let alone enough to provoke emotion or action.

Like nearly *every* vegan I know, I was completely ignorant about this *huge* social issue and never thought about it for even a single second simply because I was conditioned accept it.

You seem to infer that vegans are somehow special or simply more compassionate people than their meat/egg/dairy eating counterparts. If so, you are wrong.

Why do yourself and others continually misrepresent the position abolitionists take on vegan activism? Do you think what we do is simply make placards reading 'Go vegan' and go out screaming and shouting that in the streets? I really suggest you read more about what we do as there are now many abolitionists groups out there who offer all sorts of advice and ideas for vegans who wish to engage in vegan activism, not to mention offering extensive writeups on why welfarism not only doesn't work, but is in fact harmful to animal rights.

I did not say there were no laws 'protecting' animals or about standards. My point was that such laws are not worth the paper they are written on for two key reasons: there are no stringent regulatory authorities to enforce such 'regulations', and that animals are considered chattel property in the eyes of the law.

The second point is the fundamental issue here and given that you don't consider it leaves a large gap in your research.

Again: Animals are considered chattel property. They have no *inherent* value except that which the exploiters can profit from their exploitation and ultimate death. Given this empirical fact, the only 'welfare' improvements that can be expected are those with which A) don't hurt the bottom line of industry and B) result in more efficient exploitation which yield better 'results' and higher profits.

The property paradigm is not something the welfarists can ignore. The bottom line is any such legislation or 'reform' to 'stop cruelty' is not done in the interests of the animals but of the industry itself. Remember: something that is considered property has *no interests*.

Think about why in the US, birds were not included in the 'humane slaughter act'. Even that one simple example ipso facto proves that the interests of animals are not considered in any such legislation or 'reform'.

All you are doing is selling indulgences and reinforcing the idea that exploiting animals isn't problematic in and of itself, only *how* we do so is potentially problematic.

Again, a completely disingenuous distortion of the position of abolitionists who advocate the solution to the problem of animal exploitation (veganism). Nobody is 'attacking' anybody for anything, and no animal rights advocate attacks non-vegans for being non-vegans.

Like I suggested to Vegesaurus, do some actual research on abolitionists groups and what they do. Many sites have testimonies from people who turned vegan as a result of the peaceful, non-violent, non-confrontational activism they partake in... far from the aggressive, divisive, militant extremists we are portrayed to be.

Have a listen to this commentary which features vegan activists in Alice Springs and the success they have there.

http://media.blubrry.com/garylfrancione/p/www.abolitionistapproach.com/media/podcast/20101025-araa-commentary-20.mp3

You must live in a fairyland where education about veganism is well received and people don't respond with "mmm I'm gonna have some dead pig."
They are aware of the issues. Many simply don't care. They know exactly where their food came from, they are aware that animals can feel. In my mums words "we are humans though, we are a bit more important than animals."

Also, even if a vegan campaign can make a handful of people vegan, the rest of the majority will turn away from any and all attempts at making life even a little comfortable for animals. Animals Australia will be seen as a vegan organisation, worth no interest to those who eat meat.

Like I said a while back, better to make life a little bit happier for a large amount of animals than only save a few and keep the others locked in the dark.

I don't understand why you seem to think that I don't realise the majority of farmers and industries working with animals are treating animals like a production line, and that when humane imporvements are made it's only for personal benefit of the company.

You seem to be missing my point.

I had a 6 month subject called the research project to do as a compulsory part of my schooling. I chose to look into the legislations "protecting" farm animals. I found the credible evidence that they aren't protected. And now when I have discussions with those that are in support of the consumption of animals, they actually listen and respect my point of view, because I now know what I'm talking about, rather than not even bothering to hear my point of view.

Directly from this research and the resulting discussions I have had with others, I have managed to help people make the decision not to support items like cage eggs, and when it comes to purchasing "free range" items, they are more informed on the deceiving labels most products have.

I don't see anything wrong with that.
All I know is, when I used to tell people they need to become vegetarian or vegan, because of such and such reasons, I was ridculed and disregarded.
Now I have research behind me, I provide them with the facts and they make their own decisions, which have been moving in a positive direction, as opposed to the negative which I have received in the past. And in the end whether they make any change in their decisions or not, they now respect me, my dietry decisions and views on the matter.

I don't agree with your approach of activism when it comes to veganism. That doesn't mean you have to agree with my approach either.
But perhaps don't attack Animal's Australia for their approach, when as far as I'm concerned they are getting a lot more headway when it comes to developing people's opinions on animal welfare, more so than any activist group simply promoting veganism.