Unethical vegetarians and vegans...

wow, that's a bit much.
do you have any idea how much this guy does for animals? and he's only young.
in 10 years you'll be embarrassed you called him out -- he's gonna have a huge, huge impact on animals... which as we all know, has an effect on the plight of vulnerable humans.

jeeeeeeeeez
for having the brain to discuss human rights, it's surprising how ignorant you are of the world.
this guy takes medicine for anxiety. he's talked of not being able to go shopping in normal shopping centres (sorry bop if i got this wrong)

and from knowing someone with debilitating anxiety attacks, using your example as an analogy, normal life for the person i know IS LIKE walking around, waiting for a mine to explode. the guy i know can't go outside, sometimes not even outside his room, due to his anxiety. he cannot like a normal life (not bop, but a irl friend of mine).

it's gross that you make such swooping comments about mental illness. it will be hard for you to comprehend this, but for some suffers of anxiety, being confined to a 3rd world country is not unlike their life today.

i think you owe bop an apology just personally.

ummmm how do you know he has anxiety and how do you know he is getting treated
and how the f**k can you compare anxiety to starving to death or being tortured to the very inch of your life!
i feel for you and am sorry you have it but come on man, seriously.

My long attempt to answer everybody:

I am not trying to discourage veganism, as I said before, I am one myself. I do not believe that there was an ethical way of producing cows milk. I said that SOME people would find organically produced milk from well-treated cows may consider the milk to be ethical. (In response to Jojo). I am not wanting to insult people who may not hold the same viewpoints as me; just putting it out there and raising awareness of the issue, just like I'm sure many of you do when you ask someone if they'd like to try some of your vegan food. It's not like you're trying to force them into becoming vegan, you're just showing them the alternatives so they hold enough knowledge to make a decision for themselves.

From x.Tara : "what goes around comes around"
I don't think that two wrongs make a right. For example: yes, many of our white ancestors slaughtered thousands of native blacks, but they didn't turn around and go on a mass killing spree after we forced them into our society. Just because we kill animals, it doesn't mean that humans deserve do die. I personally wouldn't wish death on anyone.

From Francis: what is ';where possible?'
What I meant be "where possible" was reiterated by Kirrilly. We can't be 100% ethical all the time. It's simply impossible. It's not like everyone can afford to have solar panels, a water tank, veggie garden, be vegan and buy from ethical companies. Having your computer on right now, technically, is bad for the environment. What we can do is try to be the best that we can. If there are alternatives when it comes to choices in food (which we have a lot of in Australia), we should take them, but it's not always so easy. Take medicines for an example: if there is only one company which produces a medicine which you need and they have been known to be unethical, what can you do?

From Jojo: the more convenient and easy to come by food people think they can still have if they go vegan, the better as far as I'm concerned.
Isn't eating animal product "convenience"? It means that people don't have to worry so much about their diet because meat is one big protein and vitamin pack. People go to fast food restaurants such as KFC and McDonalds for convenience, but I'm sure many of the people on this forum abstain from shopping there anyway. We have to think less of our convenience and indulgences like oreos and more of what else we can do for the animals, people and environment.

Frenzel Bop and Zachory, maybe save your discussion for another time...

All vegetarians and vegans are making a difference. Even by telling people about their diet they are educating others. But we can do more. And if we can, we should.

Thanks matty.

Having anxiety is like having a gun pointed at your head at all times. I have passed out in the city before due to the fear i was feeling.

Though i don't see any reason trying to justify my actions to Zachory hes ovesly someone who hasn't been through anything in his own life and gives his $5.00 a month to world vision which is enough to convince him he is a good person because he does "something"
when in reality he is just a preachy asshole. Suffering still exists in this country just in other forms and until you know what your talking about dont talk to me.

You seam comfortable enough telling others they do nothing but what do you do? do you run campaigns? protests? collect sigs? so far you have just made your points based around knowledge you could get off google. I was interested in what you guys had to say though the way you have gone about it has been completely wrong  I have lost all interest in what you have to say and your cause.

Zachory welcome to unleashed don't let the door hit you on the way out!

hmm...this is a fantastic discussion here, and to be honest, i'm not quite sure which side of the fence i'm on!

i think for starters it needs to be said that vegetarianism/veganism is not a competition to see who can prove to be the most cruelty free.  we're all gonna have a bunch of different ideas about what's cruel and what's not when it comes down to the nitty gritty (i.e. the honey debate or boycotting companies versus supporting their vegan products to ensure we can still eat!)  but obviously we can all agree that slaughter and invasive animal testing is wrong.  i think this is the key thing to remember; in that choosing not to eat meat or animal products, we are all invariably making ourselves examples of the vegetarian/vegan lifestyles for those that still eat meat.  personally, i want my friends to see that being a vegetarian/vegan is not a major restriction on your life, and that in fact, in can be quite rewarding, both health-wise and (excuse the cliché) for your conscience.

having said that, i would never choose to buy anything from mcdonalds or kfc, simply because their staple menu is meat.  there are plenty of other fast food joints out there that do not treat animals as disgustingly (or at least, we presume so, since there are probably some cases not as well documented as the two mentioned above) and that also serve a wider range of vegetarian/vegan options.  companies like this can’t grow money on trees (despite the fact that the gluttonous behaviour of some of their figureheads suggests otherwise) and so they have to apportion their expenses in such a way that they maximise their revenue.  if they see that vegan products are selling a hell of a lot faster than their animal-based products, they will be more inclined to cull production that involves animals in favour of the vegan products.  i don’t know if it’s possible, but my ideal world would be one in which companies such as these shifted all production to vegan options, simply because there were so many people buying those products that it was useless for them to continue producing anything else.

i think what i'm trying to say, with all my excessive rambling, is that our lifestyle is all about sending a message, whether we mean to or not.  choosing to purchase things from companies with a greater range of options for us, lets other companies know that we want products that don’t rely on any form of animal cruelty.  eating like a normal person, instead of a fastidious nutcase, when with friends sends an equally important message to them that being a vegetarian/vegan is just as easy as continuing to eat meat.

cos matty took the time to get to know me rather then just assume shit and come in here as a new member with guns blazing.

i "do" nothing, i don't have the resources or money to,  to be honest i was just stating that maybe, a little compassion for some people out there who are dying might be nice. chill man, i'm sorry for upsetting you but can you see my point of view?

you see, you're so ignorant of this whole thing.
because you can't see the "gun" as bop talks of, you don't understand and so just diss his problems. to him, at times like he has said, it is like a gun is pointed at his head. that's torture.

but nvm. mental illness is still a issue you can be "excused" to be ignorant of. but when you know someone with mental illness, such as anxiety, you realise how much of a problem and how cruel a problem it is.