The Abolitionist Approach

The problem with what you said is that most people aren't that inquisitive and don't do as much research into the topics as people who become Vegans. They just take it at face value that "Free Range" means that the animals are roaming around in a paddock and are happy when that couldn't be further from the truth (not to mention they all still end up at the same slaughterhouse regardless of free range or factory farmed). [/quote]

They aren't that inquisitive? Exactly what are you basing this assumption upon? Studies? Or is that just your own opinion?



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And this is not helped by organisations like RSPCA who give their stamp of approval to animal abusing industries. In the eyes of the average consumer they believe they are doing the moral thing by consuming "free range" animal products, and this is because animal people like PETA and the RSPCA are saying it's ok.[/quote]

Yes I agree with you there. Much of it is just greenwash.

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And I disagree with you that the abolitionist and welfarist positions aren't mutually exclusive. The welfarist approach says that it is ok to use animals for our own selfish purposes as long as there is not unnecessary suffering. While the abolitionist message says there is no reason to use animals for any purpose.[/quote]

My opinion on what welfarism is or should be is that I would like to at least see something real being done to at least alleviate suffering, educate people and drive the price of animal products up while we deal with the global problem of animal use. It's huge, it won't go away overnight. If welfarist reforms weren't about the recognition of the sentience of animals, then they wouldn't focus on the pain and discomfort these animals feel.

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People would of thought it strange if people campaigning for the end of slavery had campaigned for welfarist options instead of the complete unequivocal end of slavery. If campaigners had campaigned for softer whips or bigger shackles or something, we may still have the scourge of slavery in society today (it still exists but is less widespread). Why do we think it is any different when it comes to animals? [/quote]

I don't think that producing a hypothetical situation designed to suit your argument is good debate. If anything actual evidence contradicts what you say. Slavery was abolished, yet it still exists, it's just been driven underground...apply that analogy to the problem of animal use if you need more proof as to why that's a bad analogy all round.

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In my opinion the clear and concise message from activists and animal organisations should be that if people wish to stop supporting cruelty to animals they should go Vegan (and we should stop supporting the notion that it is difficult because it really isn't). If animal welfare options present itself in the meantime then we should ofcourse accept them but presenting Veganism as an unnecessary step in doing the moral thing for animals is an approach which will never lead to animal liberation in my honest opinion.
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I agree with you here.

Don't know what happened there...

I recently watched a great video by Melanie Joy called 'Carnism: The Psychology of Eating Meat'

http://youtu.be/7vWbV9FPo_Q

On her website she suggests that what vegans should be putting their time, effort and money into is educating the population about CARNISM.

http://www.carnism.org/vegans-vegetarians

Excerpt:

"Vegans currently define the problem as the production and consumption of animals. However, this definition reflects a *consequence* of the problem. The true problem is carnism. Therefore, the goal of the vegan movement is not simply the abolition of the production and consumption of animal products, but the transformation of carnism, the system that makes such production possible in the first place.

Currently, vegans’ solution is to educate people about the consequences of the problem. Yet more often than not, even when people agree with vegans about, for instance, the horrors of farmed animal production; the health hazards of flesh/egg/dairy consumption; or the environmental repercussions of animal agribusiness; they fail to adopt the solution and stop eating animals. If carnism is the root problem, then vegan outreach needs to include educating people about carnism itself."

I think that the best way to convert someone to veganism is to encourage them to question the current mainstream belief system and subsequent actions - keep the focus on their beliefs, not yours. You can help them come to vegan conclusions themselves by presenting the relevant information.
I spent a lot of time questioning my beliefs and did a lot of research before I landed at veganism, but my commitment to the cause is now strong as steel, and I don't think that would be the case if someone had come at me with a 'go vegan' approach. That said, I think the carnism approach needs to be taken with extreme caution, so it doesn't come across as being personally critical and judgemental.
Have a read of the page above, it has lots of good points (and the 'read more' sections expand with explanations.)

Ha funny that I just watched the same video the other day.

And that's sort of what I've been getting at (I just didn't articulate it as well as Melanie Joy or yourself). Instead of campaigning against individual cases of cruelty we should be trying to change people's perceptions of animals, from "things" and "commodities" as they currently are to beings with their own interests and their own right to moral standing within the community.

I honestly think that trying to change the indoctrinated belief system of the older generations is not going to have a huge success rate. The only option for us to see real change into the future is to try to get to the next generations coming through before the carnist systems of brainwashing do their ugly work.