Horse Drawn Carriages in Melbourne

1. Those horses aren't paid, therefore they are forced laborers.
2. The horse has no way of saying "I'm tired." or "My foot hurts."
3. If it were a human pulling those carts for no pay, we'd all be up in arms about it.

I also feel inclined to say that if the horse is injured seriously there's a pretty good chance they will be euthanised regardless of how altruistic the owner may be. This is akin to a worker being shot for being in a mining accident - it just doesn't go.

Also I've seen it stated on here that the horses were saved from the knackery. In the Roman Empire people were "saved" from execution to be sold into Slavery. One might remember this in the movie Gladiator.

The horse has still died, the only difference is that its body lives on in perpetual service until it is basically physically unfit for the job and dies again.

A truly altruistic owner would buy the horse before it can be killed, and then give it a space in a paddock where it can be a free horse until it dies of natural causes.

Don't kid yourself into thinking you're helping the horse by saving it and then enslaving it.

I know I'm a year late but I've just read the things that animal1 and Little Rainbow Lady have said and I have to reply, if only for myself.

Little Rainbow Lady says that Horses fought in wars, the outcomes of which we can now thank for our "Rights". I have little faith that she actually knows what said Rights are, much less what being a horse in those wars must have been like.

Again I'd like to use an analogy: those horses were a part of those wars UNWILLINGLY. Many of them died, yet you seem to be quite proud of that fact. They were bystanders that got shot at, maimed and killed. Those that were maimed were then most likely killed. The few instances in recent history where humans have been conscripted have been HIGHLY controversial.

The more I read of what these two have said the more angry I get. I know I'm late to the charge, but they really do have a very convoluted image of "cruelty free" and vegan living.

How any vegan can not only participate in animal slavery but defend it is beyond me. You appear to be reduced to bullying the people who posted against horse carriages because little of what you say actually has any merit, and your argument relies on personal attacks.

Here are some of my favourite parts:

* These idiots that come up complaining, they are the one's causing the horse discomfort.
* The other day I had so silly girl come up and start spraying them with a bottle of water

And the winner goes to this:
* Horses are not people, they don't think like a human nor do they enjoy what humans do, usually.

This statement completely contradicts everything you have previously said.

This is a pretty long reply so I'm going to skip to my rebuttal:

Once these animals were wild and free, and almost completely different from what they are today, thanks to thousands of years of artificial selection. You perhaps use this as a sales pitch on your point of view, but think of it this way: If I came into your home, and took you and your children away, chose who you may and may not breed with, and did so for thousands of generations until your descendants were completely different from you and had been bred to serve a purpose, wouldn't this be evil?

Now, effectively you have become a living tool, used for a purpose and discarded when broken.

This is not something which nature ever intended. Since the Pre-Cambrian until roughly 100,000 years ago (that is over 541 Million Years!) this never happened.

Until along came a naked ape who decided the world was his (or hers!) to do with as they pleased. He saw that he could influence the development of plants such as wheat, and that this was very profitable for him. So he stole the children of wild animals and cruelly modified them through the same process artificial selection. However this was a very different procedure when implemented in an animal, and every so often this meant that a hideously deformed creature was born, lived in agony for a short time and died, or was euthanised immediately.

The product of this insane process was an animal so far removed from its wild ancestor that it could scarcely be called the same species. You MIGHT say that the domestic horse doesn't look all that different the original horse, but you have to take into account the temperament, size, coat and fur, bone structure etc.

That skittishness that your horses get when people spray them with water? That's a trait inherited from Equus, the great granddaddy of all modern horses.

These creatures were captured, had their wills broken, and were forced to live in spaces of land only a fraction the size of their wild territories.

Clearly this was not enough, and it can be surmised that Equus was not a willing servant, as early man deemed it necessary to select breeding partners based on temperament - in other words, selected the horses which most willingly submitted to human mastery.

Over the course of thousands of years these horses slowly surrendered their wills, until the horses we have today very willingly pull those carriages of yours around the city and don't kick up much of a fuss.

Does this make it right?

No. It does not. If Africans were slaves for so long that they no longer possessed a will to be free, would that make it correct? No. It would make it all the more abhorrent.

And when you use horses for work, when you connect them to those carriages, you are validating tens of thousands of years of slavery and genetic manipulation.

Saying "But they don't mind" is basically saying "We've bred the will to be free out of them and now it doesn't matter if they are slaves."

I understand why you're upset, people are attacking your job. But a slave is a slave, even a slave who doesn't consciously have a desire to be free.

I really do hope you come back, because I'd love to nut this out with you!

like, like, liketty, like!

Bravo, capital stuff and well said!

Okay then Mr. Identical, that sure was a damn long response you posted, however there are a few areas I would like to contradict.

To start with, you made a statement in regards to the horses not being paid in the form of money and therefore supposedly being forced laborers.
Firstly, of course we do not pay our horses in money, what is a horse going to do with money? Instead we pay our horses by giving them a safe place to live, ensuring their bellies are always full, their thirst always quenched and all their health needs taken care of. In return, all we ask of them is a mere four days of work per fortnight. And quite frankly, to these horses, to the six different horses that I rotate between, coming into town is not work to them, they do enjoy it and love to get out of the paddock, to get some brain stimulation. Trust me on this one, I spend fourteen odd hours a day with these horses, not just driving them but also cleaning their stables, washing them, feeding them, filling their waters, restocking their hay bags, rugging them, grooming them and simply lingering with them, enjoying quiet smoochy moments with them while we are out of the city, thus I am telling you, I know when my horses are and are not happy.

As for what you said about them supposedly being forced laborers, well to put it frankly, I am a small female, fifty two kilos and every horse I work would be around the six hundred kilo mark, that’s six hundred kilos of power and muscle. Do you seriously think I could force these horses into doing anything if they really did not want to do it? If these horses did not want to work they could all so easily run away from us humans when we bring them in from the paddocks, or they could turn nasty on us at the stables and refuse to let us put a harness on them, even once hitched to the carriage they still have the freedom to kick and thrash about if they chose to, but they don’t because to most of them going out in the carriage is actually something they enjoy. For example, when I harness my horses in the morning they are left unconstrained, standing loose in the stables and yet it is still they who initiate everything because it is they who step up and push their heads in through the breast plate as I hold the harness up and head height for them. It’s the same when I put their bridles on, just about every horse will turn face on and lower their head looking for the bit.

And, in regards to the comments you have made stating that these horses have no way of telling us that they are tired or that something hurts, you are very wrong. Yes, it is true that a horse cannot verbally tell us such things and I suppose there are many people out there that would simply never understand even when their horses are trying to communicate such things, however I do know my horses, I understand their body language, I feel their moods and I damn well know when they are tired, uncomfortable or hurting somewhere. There are a few stories I could tell as examples to this.

You are right in saying that if it were humans pulling those carriages for no pay then people would be up in arms about it, however humans work to make money in order to buy all the things we provide direct to our horses. Safe housing, food, water and good health.

As for your comments about the horses being euthanized if injured, once again you are ill informed. Over the past twenty odd years this company has never once had to euthanize a horse due to injury, in fact we barely have an injury happen in town full stop. Now and again we have horses come back in from the paddocks with small cuts and grazes, but that is because they are out there getting bored and thus playing rough with each other.

I've read through a few posts on here. All I have to say is I saw two horses being loaded onto a truck tonight..and they looked miserable. I could feel their sadness. I'm sorry as an animal lover, if I owed a pet and they were like this.. it would inspire me to make a change.

The reality is your business is to make money and has been outed by technology. We don't need horse cart rides... Just like the car industry has moved away from manufacturing in Australia, so too should this archaic practice.

I just visited Melbourne - saw the horses and it made me sad too.

Just the other day I went for a walk in my area and I kind of stood still in a confused daze... Clopping along the street I saw an Elderly man giving an elderly lady a ride in a carriage pulled by one pony :s

I would have commented if only I wasn't shocked lol

I was on Swanston St in Melbourne last night (Valentine's Day) 14.2.17 & saw two horses (pulling a horse-drawn carriage) both collapse backwards onto their hind legs & slam down onto the bitchumen. The noise was horrible & the sight of those poor horses lying in a heap broke my heart. Five carriage employees ran to the carriage after the driver yelled out "forget about the horses, get the carriage". Not one of the employees thought to check the horses for injuries themselves for over 10 minutes. It was only after a concerned member of the public called out "What about the horses?" did a young female employee declare out-loud "Let's make sure we check the horses!" She realised she was being filmed by this stage. She put on quite the performance. The fraudulence of her feigned concern was laughable.

It was a horrible sight to see & very telling. Horse-drawn carriage operators may well all call themselves "animal-lovers" BUT let me tell you, after what I witnessed last night, into real animal welfare they are not! I'm glad at least three Melbournians got this event on film.

If you'd like horse-drawn carriages banned in Melbourne please contact 'The City of Melbourne' on: & CC Mayor Robert Doyle into your email: Thanks guys!