A question for the abolitionists...

Ha

No one is saying you have to 'make a huge fuss'... ??

Just don't eat the thing because it has animal products.
Or do, because you want to make veganism (?) seem easier.

I'd also like to say that the little ingredients are a great way to turn people off the stuff anyway and therefore a chance to educate.

For example, gelatine. Who the f**k wants distilled hoof or fat or whatever else they say it can be made from in their lollies?

Or carmine - who is going to want to drink crushed bugs?

Or lanolin - would people think you were extreme for not eating or drinkning grease from sheeps wool?

I think you can define a "huge fuss" in different ways. I define it by asking the waiter at a restaurant, when with other non-vegans, if I may have a list of the emulsifiers in the dinner rolls. Whether this is seen as a fuss at all is obviously debatable, however, I think it is safe to say it makes veganism look, in many ways, a bit tricky - at least far from 'ideal.' If this turns someone off veganism - which it may - it's got to be worse for the animals than simply eating the roll.

Firstly, try and eat at veg restaurants or perhaps find out what you want to order before hand. Maybe just don't get bread?
And the waiter should be able to tell you if something has animal products in it in the first place.
I've never heard of anyone have to get the waiter bring out a list of emulsifiers...

Secondly I don't see choosing not eat the bread if it has any animal products in it as making a fuss.

And thirdly, as I said before, I really don't think that would turn people off going vegan - if they are will to give up all the big thigns like cheese and eggs and ice cream and chicken and all that I doubt very very very much whether they would be too concerned about having to check the ingredients on a few things.

I think veganism is tricky at times. Why disillusion people only for them to get a week into it and say "damn this is harder than I was led to believe"! I thought (for me at least) that one of the biggest points of veganism was seeing the world for what it is, and making the change in yourself. And when an emulsifier is in a piece of bread, that bread is not vegan by any stretch of the imagination, and I believe you are not vegan if you eat it.

One of things I appreciate most about michael is that when we debated his veganism before i changed, he did not paint any pretty pictures - he admitted it wasn't always easy, and outlined some of the things that were more difficult. It was hard enough to make the switch over night, but I'm glad I was a little prepared, and not shocked and having second thoughts. As a meat-eater, it also made all his arguments FOR veganism seem more credible and truthful as he had been so plain and honest about the harder aspects of the lifestyle.

I think that switching people to become vegan will obviously be easier if you make it seem easy, but how many will stick it out beyond the first couple of weeks?

BTW Matt, can you tell I want you to take my side? he he

But what if we went about changing just what vegan meant? What if we said your vegan as long as you cut out those root causes of animal cruelty, which would see the demise of agribusiness (our goal)?

Also, if we do in fact decide to cut out those miniscule animal products - where and how do we draw the line? In the case of photos, do we decide to never publish anything again? Which, if you favour cutting out those miniscule ingredients, would seem logical? right? If you can avoid the animal products in photos, which you can, I would think it would be hypocritical not to?

lol - i'm strictly neutral! ..just arguing for the other side to get some answers; really, really interesting so far.

It has been really interesting so far!

I think we all need to draw our own line ultimately. I think if there is an alternative product that is cruelty free, but you eat/buy/use the one that caused animal suffering, its not vegan. However for things where there are (in most cases) simply no alternative (driving/photos etc.), its up to you to see how far you want to take it. Obviously the further you go the more beneficial to the animals, but you can only make your life so difficult.

I would still have photos printed for example, until I found an alternative. But I wouldn't eat the evil dinner roll or order something at a restaurant I wasn't 110% sure of.

Of course, well said. I'm sick of people not understanding veganism. The amount of times I've had to explain to waiters what I can't eat. I get so excited when I rarely hear a hospitality person say, "oh you're vegan". Understanding veganism/other diets are essential if you work in restaurants, why don't people get it?