Vegan + honey = ?

I don't not care about insects, I really like them, I love watching the bees in the trees
I think honey is different to silk, I've seen my Uncle harvest honey & he's not boiling or baking bees alive, he's just smoking them out, taking a bit of honey & that's it, the bees carry on....

He plants heaps of trees for them to collect pollen from,

I guess I do feel less compassion for ants, flies etc.... I admit I do have more compassion for animals I could form bonds with...

http://www.satyamag.com/sept05/greger.html

This article is good, and argues that honey is vegan.

An excerpt:

"A certain number of bees are undeniably killed by honey production, but far more insects are killed, for example, in sugar production. And if we really cared about bugs we would never again eat anything either at home or in a restaurant that wasn’t strictly organically grown—after all, killing bugs is what pesticides do best. And organic production uses pesticides too (albeit “natural”). Researchers measure up to approximately 10,000 bugs per square foot of soil—that’s over 400 million per acre, 250 trillion per square mile. Even “veganically” grown produce involves the deaths of countless bugs in lost habitat, tilling, harvesting and transportation. We probably kill more bugs driving to the grocery store to get some honey-sweetened product than are killed in the product’s production."

I don't particularly feel for most insects but I won't eat them or their products because they are alive and they play a great part in the sustainability in our world but we don't need to eat them. we've got agave, sugar, maple and some other one i can't remember the name of.

I feel like if i think cows shouldn't be killed.. why should bees? just because I don't understand them? because they don't have emotive faces?

if we choose too exploit something/or someone because we think less of them then that just becomes like the holocaust, racism, slavery...same kind of thing.

I agree, although I haven't really had to think about this issue much because I have never been a fan of honey! I think golden syrup might be the other thing you're thinking of, not sure though.

oh that too, stevia is what I was thinking!

In terms of being "vegan" and the simplest definition of attempting to avoid animal products, honey is not vegan. Similar to how eating your own chickens eggs is not vegan.

Although I agree only a small amount can die from the smoking when more die in certain plant extraction, I personally separate accidental death and intentional death/exploitation just like I don't want to kill any ants but if I am driving I can presume that some might be run over which is different then wanting and trying to kill them.

I don't agree with exploiting any animals for our benefit, especially when it's not needed for our survival and will never support any types of honey because even though there could be less cruel ways, the cheap and commercially available one always shines through.

"Veganism is a way of living which excludes all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, the animal kingdom, and includes a reverence for life. It applies to the practice of living on the products of the plant kingdom to the exclusion of flesh, fish, fowl, eggs, honey, animal milk and its derivatives, and encourages the use of alternatives for all commodities derived wholly or in part from animals" - Veganism coined by Donald Watson in 1944 http://www.vegetus.org/honey/honey.htm

but how can you make a moral distinction between killing the inhabitants of a land to use it to grow corn and stealing the food from the inhabitants of a land causing them to die.
Murder is murder. The insects dont care why they are being killed.

I also should point out that no one has denied that the process of making honey is unethical. But a question that hasn't been addressed is why should honey bee's be given more concern than the other insects purposely killed for unessential vegan items? People who have asked that have been answered with... "the process of making honey is cruel"

It's not all a numbers thing and intentions play a large part of moral decisions, just like a moral distinction is made between manslaughter and homicide by misadventure.

Such as?