Animals Australia Unleashed
Change the World Who Cares? Videos Take Action! The Animals Community Forum Shop Blog Display
1 2 3
Your E-Mail: O Password:
Login Help     |     Join for Free!     |     Hide This

Post a Reply

Why I'll (probably) never call myself vegeterian or vegan

It's an ethical thing, crossed with a social thing.

1 - 10 of 43 posts   1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5  


FrancisM FrancisM VIC Posts: 62
1 3 May 2011
Obviously being new here I'm curious about the various reasons people have for choosing not to consume meat, or use any animal products. Another reason for being here (for me) is to draw on the ethical ideas of others to help me refine my own. I figure that in part, that means expressing what my ideas are.
For a couple of years, I was (and identified myself as) vegetarian. However, time has passed and I think it unlikely that I'd ever identify myself as vegetarian or vegan in future. I'm not about to roundly criticise not eating animals as daft, or avoiding animal products as pointless. Rather, I'm going to try to explore particular situations in with the ethical argument becomes unclear, or even potentially counterproductive.
Keep in mind I'm not presently even *behaving* as vegetarian and vegan to a substantial extent. I probably will again soon, although the finer points are still under consideration. But onward to the issue.

The core idea I'm going to explore is this: even if I stopped buying meat, cooking meat, ordering meat in restaurants, buying and eating eggs, buying and consuming milk or cheese, Despite all this, I will never call myself vegetarian, because I might still eat meat.
It sounds pretty obvious that this would preclude calling myself a vegetarian, but the point is that being vegetarian may not (although I'm hoping others will debate this here) be the most ethical option.
For example: if I go to visit a friend, and my friend (despite my best efforts to explain this to everyone) has cooked up a stir-fry including meat, despite the fact that I think killing animals for food is ethically wrong I'm not going to pick out the meat and put it aside. Why? Because the animal is already dead. Sure, to pick out the meat or even refuse the meal in its entirety might make an impression on my friend; that friend will probably never make the mistake again of cooking meat when I'm visiting. But the animal is still dead, and now that part of it has gone to waste. Unless my friend is particularly nasty, then as long as I discuss with them the fact that I would much prefer that they didn't cook meat for me (even if that simply meant giving me the exact same thing without meat) will mean he is unlikely to make the mistake again. That, and it quite unoffensive so will not put him offside.
Another similar waste-related one is this: if I buy a coffee from a shop and they for some reason erroneously use normal milk instead of soy, I'll still drink it. It is, I think, probably the most ethical thing to do. That coffee can not be served to anyone else - at best, one of the people behind the counter may drink it (and thus not produce another milk-containing one later). If I ask for another coffee, one that contains the soy I asked for rather that milk, then not only will the coffee with milk probably go to waste but additional materials and energy (coffee, soy-bean production, etc.) has been used which otherwise would not have.

So those are the ethical things that mean even if I aim to be vegetarian or vegan, I can never be sure that I actually will be. However, if in this hypothetical these situations never occurred, then in this hypothetical case in which I'm aiming to be vegan or vegetarian, I would indeed be. But even in this latter case, I could never identify myself as vegetarian or vegan, essentially for social reasons. And that is more awkward than you may imagine.
See, if I called myself vegetarian or vegan, but then drank that otherwise-to-be-wasted cup of coffee with milk, or ate that otherwise-going-to-the-bin stir-fry meat then I think I would be subjected to substantial social censure. That's fair enough; if everyone who called themselves vegetarian ate meat when it was accidentally delivered to them in a restaurant (instead of the vegetarian equivalent) then I imagine that the idea of vegetarianism would become much harder for people to understand, they would see it as hypocritical, and frankly people may be less careful to ensure that they remember that such-and-such is vegetarian when cooking for them.
The problem is that saying "I don't like eating meat" doesn't have nearly the same connotation as "I'm vegetarian". The former is likely to be interpreted as "I don't really like meat", or "I'm a picky eater" rather than "I believe killing animals for food is ethically wrong". It doesn't carry the same weight. So the options are (excluding explaining this entire thing in advance in every situation) to describe myself as vegetarian, but inevitably be criticised (and probably by vegetarians and vegans, to be honest) when I eat meat because it is the most ethical decision - OR - to not describe myself as vegetarian to avoid the social censure, but by avoiding the use of the stronger term make the likelihood of people making errors in understanding the seriousness of my 'preference' not to eat meat.
I like to think it is a bit of a quandary.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not claiming that vegans and vegetarians are obliged to eat a slab of meat stuck in front of them in error, even if the alternative is that the meat goes in the bin. I am, however, claiming that depending on your perspective on energy conservation, what about meat-consumption is ethically wrong (e.g. the conditions in which animals are raised, the killing, or whatever aspect(s) it may be) then to eat that piece of meat may actually be the most ethically sound thing to do.
And that's why, even if I exercise my buying power (not buying or ordering meat or animal-based products) and my social power (trying to bring people's awareness to the ethical issues) to reduce the use of animals for food and other products in which alternatives exist and are readily available, I will probably never call myself vegetarian or vegan. Even if I never eat meat, or use animal products.

I'd love to hear the views of others on this. And it isn't intended as a criticism of vegetarianism or veganism; that isn't the point I'm trying to make.
ReplyQuote

Karen Karen Australia Posts: 993
2 3 May 2011
Unleashed Admin
I think the animals will be happy for you to call yourself whatever you like so long as you're not actively funding factory farming, slaughtering, etc. Good on you!

thumb wink
ReplyQuote

Nobody Nobody QLD Posts: 593
3 3 May 2011
I'm really bad at debates, so I'll just state my opinion.
I can see your point of view, but those situations you described would be rare occurrences.
If I was offered meat stir fry, even considering the wastage, I would turn it down. Not for my title as a veggo, but because the thought of eating animal flesh now grosses me out.

Obviously if you believe you may still consume the occasional animal products, it would be wrong to title yourself a veg*n - like you said, it would confuse people.
You could however let people know you are a flexitarian - only consuming meat every now and then. Or go without a title at all.
Peace!  peace_out
ReplyQuote

ok ok NSW Posts: 232
4 3 May 2011
I used to be the same... ate chicken or fish at social gatherings if there was no alternative (im lactose intolerant so if there was no vego option which was dairy free i would often go for the above.

Over time I found I just couldnt do it anymore, i felt incredibly guilty afterwards so I just ended up stopping.

I dont think theres any problem with saying "Im pretty much vego" which is what I used to say and then, if they wanted more info i would explain.

I like pushing m beliefs onto others happy
ReplyQuote

Little_Kitty Little_Kitty United Kingdom Posts: 376
5 3 May 2011
I really really liked your post...you make very good points and it was refreshing to read something wasn't all or nothing as you get with a lot of vegan stuff.
ReplyQuote

FrancisM FrancisM VIC Posts: 62
6 3 May 2011
Hi Dark_Cherry,
Dark_Cherry said:
I'm really bad at debates, so I'll just state my opinion.
That's fine - I'm not really trying to convince anyone of anything here, so it's probably for the best.
Dark_Cherry said:
I can see your point of view, but those situations you described would be rare occurrences.
If I was offered meat stir fry, even considering the wastage, I would turn it down. Not for my title as a veggo, but because the thought of eating animal flesh now grosses me out.
The situations are definitely rare, but I have seen them (or very similar) on more than one occasion. Also, I'm not necessarily saying that others *should* eat meat in these circumstances. Even whether it is more ethical to do so is really dependent on a lot of finer points of your value system. And to say "I wouldn't eat the meat because it would gross me out" is perfectly OK. In fact, it is excellent because it is honest. The only time it is really a problem (for me, probably not for the person saying it) is when someone has a very specific ethical system, and is very vocal about it, but then doesn't actually adhere to it.

Dark_Cherry said:
Obviously if you believe you may still consume the occasional animal products, it would be wrong to title yourself a veg*n - like you said, it would confuse people.
You could however let people know you are a flexitarian - only consuming meat every now and then. Or go without a title at all.
Peace!  peace_out
I'd go with no title, because like you say it would confuse people. The trick will be working out an effective way of communicating the strength of my desire for others not to use meat when providing for me without using the words. But the challenges are the fun bit.
ReplyQuote

JMort JMort VIC Posts: 248
7 3 May 2011
I don't love using these terms for people. I use them for food and that's it. They are far too loaded to use on myself, and I have found that using them raises more superfluous questions than it's worth.

Excellent piece, and I agree with much of what you said. Not sure I'd go for the meat, even if it was to be wasted. True, the animal is dead but I'd rather not tempt myself back into eating meat.
ReplyQuote

FrancisM FrancisM VIC Posts: 62
8 3 May 2011
Karen said:
I think the animals will be happy for you to call yourself whatever you like so long as you're not actively funding factory farming, slaughtering, etc. Good on you!

thumb wink
Thanks =)

May-Z said:
...
Over time I found I just couldnt do it anymore, i felt incredibly guilty afterwards so I just ended up stopping.
...
Out of curiosity, did this mean you started taking your own stuff to BBQs?
In any case, I found this a really interesting comment. Even though by avoiding wastage you would have been (according to my ethical system) acting ethically, I'm not at all surprised that over time a feeling of guilt would develop. I mean, you were not eating meat on a daily basis because you feel that using animals for food is wrong (for whatever underlying reasons you may have), right? That's a pretty simple rule, emotionally - eating animals = bad. But when such complex ethical rules start showing up, I think it can be pretty hard to make the much more rudimentary system of emotional triggers respond according to those complex rules.

May-Z said:
I like pushing m beliefs onto others happy
I just like nudging people to think about the full consequences of their ethical positions, and the foundations on which they exist.

Little_Kitty said:
I really really liked your post...you make very good points and it was refreshing to read something wasn't all or nothing as you get with a lot of vegan stuff.
Thanks. I believe that most ethical issues are complex, and the ethics associated with veg*n living is no exception.

JMort said:
Not sure, I'd go for the meat, even if it was to be wasted. True, the animal is dead but I'd rather not tempt myself back into eating meat.
This comment evokes a lot of respect from me, for two reasons:
(a) It acknowledges some complexity in ethical decisions (it may be ethically good to eat the meat, but it risks an ethically much worse outcome which is re-establishing a pattern of financially supporting meat production)
(b) It acknowledges that for you the ethical decision is not consistent with your culinary desires; thus to not eat meat is a decision which means giving up something you like, but you've made the decision anyway.

Maybe when I've settled in here a little more, I'll try to get a feel for people's ethical views towards genetic modification in food production tongue
ReplyQuote

Clud Clud VIC Posts: 1559
9 3 May 2011
I understand your points but you seem to be an ethical person but why do you think it is more ethical to eat meat in these situations when you could reject it and it wouldn't be rude or anything?
ReplyQuote

FrancisM FrancisM VIC Posts: 62
10 3 May 2011
Callum said:
I understand your points but you seem to be an ethical person but why do you think it is more ethical to eat meat in these situations when you could reject it and it wouldn't be rude or anything?
Really great question. The reason is because in my view (which I don't expect others to share) the animal has already been killed and so waste of any part of it should be minimised in order to maximise the value obtained from its death. In the case of animal flesh, this means that to allow that to go to waste would be devaluing the death of the animal by (at least) the energy value of the meat. This position has some weird effects. For example, if the amount of hide produced in the process of meat production outstripped demand so the excess was being destroyed, and this leather could be used to make jackets, I would be encouraging people to buy leather jackets to foster use of this otherwise wasted material.
In the example of getting another coffee made, it also includes an ethical view on minimisation of energy waste - which is the exact same ethical view that means I'm about to go and turn off my kitchen light, since I just noticed I left it on.

Oh, I should note that as well as encouraging the wearing of leather jackets to ensure full usage of the animal materials that were otherwise waste, the bigger goal would be to cut down animal usage where alternatives are available (food, clothing, non-synthetic animal compounds in cosmetics, etc.) anyway.

Also, this view requires at least a bit of movement from an absolutist position because (I believe) a strict absolutist position would be that since the animal is dead, then nothing can reduce the gravity of that. Hence wasting an animal product is irrelevant. (I may be misrepresenting that position; I don't really know a lot about it).
ReplyQuote

< Prev
 [ 1 ]  [ 2 ]  [ 3 ]  [ 4 ]  [ 5 ] 

www.unleashed.org.au